Hirdious said: I've seen some issues with the previous system not picking up tactics Expand
No, there're other reasons for that decision.
Yes, tactic are being added manually in the queue but don't worry we make sure that all uploaded tactics are reviewed and If some your tactics weren't picked for the testing then there was only one reason for that, they didn't meet the requirements - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2733-how-fm-arena-picks-tactics-for-the-testing/
It's a known fact that many people play the game or test tactics using "Go On Vacation/Holiday" approach but the full game version isn't supposed to be played like that, I'll explain what I mean.
From time to time players come to you with various concerns and issues, it looks like this:
They also get "Concerned" status in their "Player Status"
If you don't talk to players within few days after they became "Concerned" then they automatically turn "Unhappy", which means they are mad at you and might not talk to you for few weeks or months, all that time their Morale will be very poor:
Usually, many other players in the team start to support "Unhappy" players and also get a poor Morale.
IMPORTANT: If you think that your assistant manager handles the issues with players when you go on "Holiday/Vacation" then you're wrong because he doesn't do that ( the game doesn't have such mechanics ).
Also, it's important to understand that when you go on Holiday/Vacation then your assistant manager handles these important things:
- Assistant Manager does the team talks - Assistant Manager picks players for the starting eleven - Assistant Manager rotates the team - Assistant Manager does substitutions
And if your assistant manager has poor attributes for handling these important things then the result will be much worse than they could be.
That's why it's very important to "Freeze" the morale and conditions with FMRTE when you test tactics.
Also, it's important to understand that playing/testing on "Holiday/Vacation" might produce much worse result than playing the game in normal way.
ZaZ said: I just wonder if it's better to have neutral WB and IF, or if they are better both wide to stretch the field away from midfield (in a context without overlap team instruction). Expand If you look at the result of this test - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2899-width/
then you'll see that there's almost no difference between the minimal value and the maximal value of the width setting.
Of course, for a different formation with different roles, duties, TIs the result might be different but I don't think there'll be much difference.
Anyway, if someone's gonna test different combinations of the Width setting for the wingers and fullback then obviously, it must be done without the "Overlap" TI because it might override the width settings of the wingers and fullbacks.
ZaZ said: Well, I changed only two things in my updated Water, and the decrease in quality was noticeable (still in the limit of RNG, but still a big decrease). Since I don't think the cause was shorter passing, I assume it's the narrow for WB. The only changes were those two. Expand
I just want to be clear my knowledge about how the overlap TI works is from the devs BUT it might be outdated because it was the previous FM versions and they might change the way it works for FM23.
BUT still I think it's useful to know how it worked before ( it still might work the same right now ).
I've been noticing that an intensive testing of different width combinations for wingers and fullbacks happens here.
So I just want to share with you my thoughts and experience about it.
First of all, in order overlap runs happen the wingers must sit narrower than the fullbacks otherwise overlap runs won't happen.
And I'm almost sure that when you add "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI then this happens:
- the wingers get their width setting set at "Narrow"
- the fullbacks get their width setting set at "Wide"
- the wingers get their "Forward Runs" setting reduced
- the fullbacks get their "Forward Runs" setting increased
(some other things might happen under the hood)
As we know, TIs override PIs, which means if you have "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI then any PIs that change the width setting for the wingers and fullbacks won't have any effect.
Btw, the test results kinda prove that because the difference between different width settings for the wingers and fullbacks when there are "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI are present is just less than 1 point, which is within the margin of error for 6K matches test.
So I suggest when you test PIs then make sure you don't use any TIs that might override the PIs.
opq said: p.s. also many players on def side have "doesn't dive into tackles" trait which is contrary with tackle hard PI Expand
If we take the best 5,879 players in the game ( CA > 125 ) then only 202 of them have "Does Not Dive Into Tackles" trait, which means about only 3% of players have this trait, I would not call it "many".
Also, when adding "Tackle Harder" PI or "Get Stuck In" PI it doesn't necessary mean that you ask your player to "dive into tackles", it means that you ask them be "rough" when it comes physical challenges but standing physical challenges also can be "rough".
Another notice, for example, if a player has "Run With The Ball Rarely" trait and you ask him to play a winger then he still will dribble just fine because traits apply only when they makes sense and if a player have traits it doesn't mean that he will be complete ignoring the tactical instructions, it's just that from time to time he'll be following his traits.
The amount of yellow cards has dropped almost 4 times and the amount of fouls has dropped almost 3 times but the same time the result has dropped almost 20 points:
'Get Stuck In' TI and 'Tackle Harder' PI
No 'Get Stuck In' TI and 'Easy Off Tackles' PI
Please note, it doesn't make sense testing 'Easy Off Tackles' PI with 'Get Stuck In' TI activated because 'Get Stuck In' TI overrides 'Easy Off Tackles' PI.
Delicious said: So what happen if i do stay on feet and tackle harder? it should over-drive it? Expand As I said, TIs override PIs.
Adding "Stay On Feet" TI would be similar to adding "Easy Off Tackles" PI to every position.
If the positions have "Tackle Harder" PI and you add "Stay On Feet" TI then the "Stay On Feet" TI takes a priority over the "Tackle Harder" PIs
Delicious said: But if with "stay on feet" i don't lose like 8-10 points it might be a valid option to give with the "main" tactic as well. Expand There are 3 levels of the tackles' aggression:
The highest level = "Tackle Harder" PI or "Get Stuck In" TI
The middle level = No "Tackle Harder" PI or No "Get Stuck In" TI
The lowest level = "Easy Of Tackles" PI or "Stay on Feet" TI
The highest level gives the best result and it decreases with lowering the aggression level
Delicious said: Maybe SI tried to nerf gegenpress this way, but that thing about "getting too many cards" is a problem since the release of fm23. Expand No, they just don't want that the best options were free of cost.
With "Tackle Harder" PI or "Gut Stuck In" TI you get a better result than without them but it costs you an extra yellow cards and that makes sense.
Have a deep bench and adjust the aggression of tackles during matches and yellow cards won't be a problem for you.
Delicious said: Well, if that can help i did even a pacific version of allahm II , imho this should get tested to check "how much" points the tactic could lose, i mean soon or later i will test even those,but test stuck-in or tackle harder was already tested tons of time already. I did on Will's test, and basically and it's quite rare you get even yellow cards or reds. But what i didn't know that it over drive tackle harder, and so at the moment is just a cosmetic. Expand
ZaZ said: Test the top tactic with the TI and with PI and show results, please. =) Expand
We've internally tested "424 Alhamdulillah II" tactic without "Get Stuck In" TI for 1,920 matches and here's the result:
"424 Alhamdulillah II" tactic without "Get Stuck In" TI = 60.18645833333 points
Please note, that we tested the version without "Get Stuck In" TI only for 1,920 matches so the RNG might be 3 points and if we tested it for 5,760 Matches as we did to the original tactic then the result might be worse up to 3 points.
Anyway, even if the version without "Get Stuck In" TI got 0.5 - 2.0 points less than the original tactic then I still would suggested playing a normal game without "Get Stuck In" TI because there are always at least 1-3 matches every season where some of your players gets a second yellow card that automatically turns into a red card and it might cost you 3 - 6 points every season but it can be prevented by removing 'Tackle Harder' PI off this player or even adding 'Ease Off Tackles' PI to him, of course, that would have an effect if there's no "Get Stuck In" TI, which overrides the PIs.
I don't urge everyone to imidialty get rid of "Get Stuck In" TI, especially, if your goal is getting the highest score in our tactic testing because "Get Stuck In" TI might also increase the "Pressing" by a tiny fraction (I'm not sure about it), which might improve the score by 0.5 point in our tactic testing but if you play a normal game then obviously, "Get Stuck In" TI is pure evil, it doesn't allow you making point adjustments to the aggression of the tackles, which might cost you 3 - 6 points every season.
Also, imagine you're playing in a final and some of your players got an early yellow card and you can do nothing to adjust the aggression level of his tackles.
The "Physical Conditions" before a match ( Avg. = 10,000):
A very high "Intensity" tactic was used to play the match. The "Physical Conditions" after the match ( Avg. = 6,818 ):
A low "Intensity" tactic was used to play the match. The "Physical Conditions" after the match ( Avg. = 7,181 ):
As you can see the Intensity makes a significant difference when it comes to the "Physical Conditions".
So it could be a good idea when in a match your team is up 2-3 goals to lower the Intensity of your tactic to conserve the "Physical Conditions" of your players for the further matches.
Here's what you can do to lower the Intensity of your tactic:
- Lower the Mentality
- Lower the Tempo
- Lower the Pressing intensity
- Increase the Time Wasting
- Lower the Line Of Engagement
- Add the Stay On Feet TI
- Add the Easy Off Tackles PI
- Change "Attacking" duties to "Support" or "Defend" duties
BE AWARE: Lowering the Intensity saves the "Physical Conditions" but worsen the performance so be careful with that. I suggest lowering the Intensity only in not important matches like friendly matches or in a match when your team is 2-3 goals ahead of the opponent.
If look at the top tactics from our tactic testing then you'll see they all have 'Get Stuck In' TI and the positions have 'Tackle Harder' PI.
It seems mandatory to have these tactical instructions if you want to maximize the result.
But highly likely those tactical instructions do the same thing, they just set the aggression of the tackles at the highest possible level.
If you ask me then I find using "Tackle Harder" PI gives you much more flexibility than using "Get Stuck In" TI.
When you add "Get Stuck In" TI then you increase the aggression level of the tackles for every position in your tactic and when you remove "Get Stuck In" TI then you decrease the aggression level of the tackles for every position in your tactic, it doesn't allow you to make point adjustments but very often you need it.
How often do you see that during a match some of your players gets a second yellow card that automatically turns into a red card?
That can be easily prevented, it's just when during a match you see some of your players gets booked then remove 'Tackle Harder' PI off this player or even add 'Ease Off Tackles' PI to him.
BUT BE AWERE if "Get Stuck In" TI is present then the actions above won't have any effect because TIs override PIs.
As you can see having "Get Stuck In" TI is pure evil it doesn't allow you making point adjustments to the aggression level of the tackles.
So I discourage you from using "Get Stuck In" TI, you'd better use "Tackle Harder" PI, it gives the same effect as "Get Stuck In" TI, but also allows you making point adjustments to the aggression level of the tackles.
and "424 Alhamdulillah II 0.2" tactic got "59,335416666667" points
so the difference is "0.422222222" points
Bear in mind, that "Alhamdulillah II" tactic has been tested for 6K matches and the RNG for such distance is only "1" point, which means it might go "up" or "down" only "1" point, so the lowest score might be 59 points and the highest score might be 61 points.
But "424 Alhamdulillah II 0.2" tactic has been tested for 2K matches and the RNG for such distance is "3" points, which means it might go "up" or "down" by 3 points, so the lowest score might be 56 points and the highest score might be 62 points.
It's a very slippery path and we won't go this way.
I hope you understand.
Cheers.
Yup, my mistake
Here's a correct link for 424 Alhamdulillah X ( Game Saves ) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngQKyPNKGtj76wgiljtZMl8K2cAdSm7V/view?usp=sharing
424 Alhamdulillah II ( Game Saves ) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YgvsvYvhUyWJRsxHS0CNIeuIwSzg6n86/view?usp=sharing
424 Alhamdulillah X ( Game Saves ) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngQKyPNKGtj76wgiljtZMl8K2cAdSm7V/view?usp=sharing
No, there're other reasons for that decision.
Yes, tactic are being added manually in the queue but don't worry we make sure that all uploaded tactics are reviewed and If some your tactics weren't picked for the testing then there was only one reason for that, they didn't meet the requirements - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2733-how-fm-arena-picks-tactics-for-the-testing/
Cheers.
It takes unnecessary efforts to click the spoiler to view the pictures.
Cheers.
It's a known fact that many people play the game or test tactics using "Go On Vacation/Holiday" approach but the full game version isn't supposed to be played like that, I'll explain what I mean.
From time to time players come to you with various concerns and issues, it looks like this:
They also get "Concerned" status in their "Player Status"
If you don't talk to players within few days after they became "Concerned" then they automatically turn "Unhappy", which means they are mad at you and might not talk to you for few weeks or months, all that time their Morale will be very poor:
Usually, many other players in the team start to support "Unhappy" players and also get a poor Morale.
You can look at the result of our test to find out how important the Morale is - https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/
IMPORTANT: If you think that your assistant manager handles the issues with players when you go on "Holiday/Vacation" then you're wrong because he doesn't do that ( the game doesn't have such mechanics ).
Also, it's important to understand that when you go on Holiday/Vacation then your assistant manager handles these important things:
- Assistant Manager does the team talks
- Assistant Manager picks players for the starting eleven
- Assistant Manager rotates the team
- Assistant Manager does substitutions
And if your assistant manager has poor attributes for handling these important things then the result will be much worse than they could be.
That's why it's very important to "Freeze" the morale and conditions with FMRTE when you test tactics.
Also, it's important to understand that playing/testing on "Holiday/Vacation" might produce much worse result than playing the game in normal way.
I hope this helps.
Cheers.
Using one spoiler per tactic & just renaming the thread (Example Delicious Tactic Collection) or something seems way more efficient.
I understand the frustration, it wasn't an easy decision but we have reasons for it.
I hope you understand.
I just want to let you know that from this moment only one tactic per thread is possible.
So don't be confused.
Also, don't worry the tactics that were uploaded under the old system will be tested as usual, of course, if they meet the requirements.
Cheers.
If you look at the result of this test - https://fm-arena.com/thread/2899-width/
then you'll see that there's almost no difference between the minimal value and the maximal value of the width setting.
Of course, for a different formation with different roles, duties, TIs the result might be different but I don't think there'll be much difference.
Anyway, if someone's gonna test different combinations of the Width setting for the wingers and fullback then obviously, it must be done without the "Overlap" TI because it might override the width settings of the wingers and fullbacks.
Yup, it could be the reason.
BUT still I think it's useful to know how it worked before ( it still might work the same right now ).
I've been noticing that an intensive testing of different width combinations for wingers and fullbacks happens here.
So I just want to share with you my thoughts and experience about it.
First of all, in order overlap runs happen the wingers must sit narrower than the fullbacks otherwise overlap runs won't happen.
And I'm almost sure that when you add "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI then this happens:
- the wingers get their width setting set at "Narrow"
- the fullbacks get their width setting set at "Wide"
- the wingers get their "Forward Runs" setting reduced
- the fullbacks get their "Forward Runs" setting increased
(some other things might happen under the hood)
As we know, TIs override PIs, which means if you have "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI then any PIs that change the width setting for the wingers and fullbacks won't have any effect.
Btw, the test results kinda prove that because the difference between different width settings for the wingers and fullbacks when there are "Overlap Left" TI and "Overlap Right" TI are present is just less than 1 point, which is within the margin of error for 6K matches test.
So I suggest when you test PIs then make sure you don't use any TIs that might override the PIs.
Cheers.
If we take the best 5,879 players in the game ( CA > 125 ) then only 202 of them have "Does Not Dive Into Tackles" trait, which means about only 3% of players have this trait, I would not call it "many".
Also, when adding "Tackle Harder" PI or "Get Stuck In" PI it doesn't necessary mean that you ask your player to "dive into tackles", it means that you ask them be "rough" when it comes physical challenges but standing physical challenges also can be "rough".
Another notice, for example, if a player has "Run With The Ball Rarely" trait and you ask him to play a winger then he still will dribble just fine because traits apply only when they makes sense and if a player have traits it doesn't mean that he will be complete ignoring the tactical instructions, it's just that from time to time he'll be following his traits.
The original tactic - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/3913-424-alhamdulillah-ii/
The amount of yellow cards has dropped almost 4 times and the amount of fouls has dropped almost 3 times but the same time the result has dropped almost 20 points:
'Get Stuck In' TI and 'Tackle Harder' PI
No 'Get Stuck In' TI and 'Easy Off Tackles' PI
Please note, it doesn't make sense testing 'Easy Off Tackles' PI with 'Get Stuck In' TI activated because 'Get Stuck In' TI overrides 'Easy Off Tackles' PI.
As I said, TIs override PIs.
Adding "Stay On Feet" TI would be similar to adding "Easy Off Tackles" PI to every position.
If the positions have "Tackle Harder" PI and you add "Stay On Feet" TI then the "Stay On Feet" TI takes a priority over the "Tackle Harder" PIs
Delicious said: But if with "stay on feet" i don't lose like 8-10 points it might be a valid option to give with the "main" tactic as well.
There are 3 levels of the tackles' aggression:
The highest level = "Tackle Harder" PI or "Get Stuck In" TI
The middle level = No "Tackle Harder" PI or No "Get Stuck In" TI
The lowest level = "Easy Of Tackles" PI or "Stay on Feet" TI
The highest level gives the best result and it decreases with lowering the aggression level
Delicious said: Maybe SI tried to nerf gegenpress this way, but that thing about "getting too many cards" is a problem since the release of fm23.
No, they just don't want that the best options were free of cost.
With "Tackle Harder" PI or "Gut Stuck In" TI you get a better result than without them but it costs you an extra yellow cards and that makes sense.
Have a deep bench and adjust the aggression of tackles during matches and yellow cards won't be a problem for you.
I did on Will's test, and basically and it's quite rare you get even yellow cards or reds.
But what i didn't know that it over drive tackle harder, and so at the moment is just a cosmetic.
ZaZ said: Test the top tactic with the TI and with PI and show results, please. =)
We've internally tested "424 Alhamdulillah II" tactic without "Get Stuck In" TI for 1,920 matches and here's the result:
"424 Alhamdulillah II" tactic without "Get Stuck In" TI = 60.18645833333 points
"424 Alhamdulillah II" tactic = 59.75763888889 points
Please note, that we tested the version without "Get Stuck In" TI only for 1,920 matches so the RNG might be 3 points and if we tested it for 5,760 Matches as we did to the original tactic then the result might be worse up to 3 points.
Anyway, even if the version without "Get Stuck In" TI got 0.5 - 2.0 points less than the original tactic then I still would suggested playing a normal game without "Get Stuck In" TI because there are always at least 1-3 matches every season where some of your players gets a second yellow card that automatically turns into a red card and it might cost you 3 - 6 points every season but it can be prevented by removing 'Tackle Harder' PI off this player or even adding 'Ease Off Tackles' PI to him, of course, that would have an effect if there's no "Get Stuck In" TI, which overrides the PIs.
I don't urge everyone to imidialty get rid of "Get Stuck In" TI, especially, if your goal is getting the highest score in our tactic testing because "Get Stuck In" TI might also increase the "Pressing" by a tiny fraction (I'm not sure about it), which might improve the score by 0.5 point in our tactic testing but if you play a normal game then obviously, "Get Stuck In" TI is pure evil, it doesn't allow you making point adjustments to the aggression of the tackles, which might cost you 3 - 6 points every season.
Also, imagine you're playing in a final and some of your players got an early yellow card and you can do nothing to adjust the aggression level of his tackles.
If look at the top tactics from our tactic testing then you'll see that they all have the "Intensity" almost at the maximum.
In our tactic testing league the "Physical Conditions" isn't a problem because every player gets 100% "Physical Conditions" before every match.
But in a normal game a proper management of the "Physical Conditions" could be the key element to success.
You can look at our test of "Physical Conditions" and find out how "Physical Conditions" are important for the result - https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/
The "Physical Conditions" before a match ( Avg. = 10,000):
A very high "Intensity" tactic was used to play the match.
The "Physical Conditions" after the match ( Avg. = 6,818 ):
A low "Intensity" tactic was used to play the match.
The "Physical Conditions" after the match ( Avg. = 7,181 ):
As you can see the Intensity makes a significant difference when it comes to the "Physical Conditions".
So it could be a good idea when in a match your team is up 2-3 goals to lower the Intensity of your tactic to conserve the "Physical Conditions" of your players for the further matches.
Here's what you can do to lower the Intensity of your tactic:
- Lower the Mentality
- Lower the Tempo
- Lower the Pressing intensity
- Increase the Time Wasting
- Lower the Line Of Engagement
- Add the Stay On Feet TI
- Add the Easy Off Tackles PI
- Change "Attacking" duties to "Support" or "Defend" duties
BE AWARE: Lowering the Intensity saves the "Physical Conditions" but worsen the performance so be careful with that. I suggest lowering the Intensity only in not important matches like friendly matches or in a match when your team is 2-3 goals ahead of the opponent.
I hope this helps.
Cheers.
If look at the top tactics from our tactic testing then you'll see they all have 'Get Stuck In' TI and the positions have 'Tackle Harder' PI.
It seems mandatory to have these tactical instructions if you want to maximize the result.
But highly likely those tactical instructions do the same thing, they just set the aggression of the tackles at the highest possible level.
If you ask me then I find using "Tackle Harder" PI gives you much more flexibility than using "Get Stuck In" TI.
When you add "Get Stuck In" TI then you increase the aggression level of the tackles for every position in your tactic and when you remove "Get Stuck In" TI then you decrease the aggression level of the tackles for every position in your tactic, it doesn't allow you to make point adjustments but very often you need it.
How often do you see that during a match some of your players gets a second yellow card that automatically turns into a red card?
That can be easily prevented, it's just when during a match you see some of your players gets booked then remove 'Tackle Harder' PI off this player or even add 'Ease Off Tackles' PI to him.
BUT BE AWERE if "Get Stuck In" TI is present then the actions above won't have any effect because TIs override PIs.
As you can see having "Get Stuck In" TI is pure evil
So I discourage you from using "Get Stuck In" TI, you'd better use "Tackle Harder" PI, it gives the same effect as "Get Stuck In" TI, but also allows you making point adjustments to the aggression level of the tackles.
I hope this helps.
Cheers.
opq said: -0.42 pts from original with IFs
so more or less RNG
Yes, that's correct.
424 "Alhamdulillah II" tactic got "59,757638888889" points
and "424 Alhamdulillah II 0.2" tactic got "59,335416666667" points
so the difference is "0.422222222" points
Bear in mind, that "Alhamdulillah II" tactic has been tested for 6K matches and the RNG for such distance is only "1" point, which means it might go "up" or "down" only "1" point, so the lowest score might be 59 points and the highest score might be 61 points.
But "424 Alhamdulillah II 0.2" tactic has been tested for 2K matches and the RNG for such distance is "3" points, which means it might go "up" or "down" by 3 points, so the lowest score might be 56 points and the highest score might be 62 points.
I just want to let you know that we've changed the queue algorithm to "Round-Robin" so no more CCP.
Cheers.