Delicious said: PI/TI interaction is very strange. Expand For me too!
Delicious said: At first i did believe it was like you said on FM23, that there was an hidden "multiplier" like pass into space + take more risk was rising it to 20 (example).
But literally they are the same thing on FM24. And not every role needs it. Even Hold up is doing something good. (Or maybe is another cosmetic feature, can't understand from the game, because i can't notice any difference).
But the CF(su) results are leading me to thinking the contrary. Expand I had said what the game devs told me. The instructions that "tend" to be the same for both team and players are those that have sliders. For example 'Trigger Press', 'Passing Directness' etc.
Pass Into Space + Take More Risks are not 100% related. While they do have to do with passing in general, there are some differences in terms of risk. That's why in some positions/roles you don't need 'Take More Risks'.
Delicious said: Keep in mind that players will get tired during the game,even tho they are frozen on coditions/morale/etc. So if test team or IA team can't sub out it may affect the results.
I don't know if is in a positive or negative way. Expand My brother perhaps I did not explain my question well. Certainly not making in-match subs will have an impact and the test will not be as reliable. My point is that maybe the 'Use of Subs' attribute has something to do with when these subs are made and if they are made in general.
An example: - The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 1 may not make subs in-match or may make them quite late - for example in the 85th minute or later. - The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 20 may make subs very quickly and in every game.
This again would have an effect on the results as a more rested player in the game would have their ability at full capacity while those who are tired would be -3/-5 in every attribute due to fatigue.
Zippo said: Subs must happen and restricting them would have unpredictable consequences for the reliability of the results. Expand The question for this case actually is if the “Use of Subs” attribute has an effect of when and/or if subs occur inside the game.
I used what Delicious stated above with the WB cross more often combo did that and maybe like Delicious is saying its a bit of a dice roll however 3 Point Difference seems probably better to use FB Expand That's why I said above when I tested them in my own tests they were more reliable in many parts of the game. Definitely a slight change though, it only has to do with the RNG. The goal is to find the weakness of ME, i.e. how your team builds up and how your team attacks, and try to use the right roles and team/player instructions to break it down.
FBs alone gave good results regardless of what roles were around them but that again we can find the best combination to maximize the effect.
Delicious said: -^ or maybe cross from byline is the malus. Expand It could, but I think "Get Further Forward" does already a lot of work along with the team and player mentality.
juwow said: The FBs have Shoot Less Often to disregard the random shots the AI does and Tackle Harder, pretty basic.
I feel like maybe in 3 CB formations the WB needs a bit more input to do his work but in this shape almost anything can work I believe Expand I think the key on FB(a) is ‘Cross More Often’ as @Delicious also said. Low crossing on FM24 is very powerful.
@juwow what are the PIs for FBs? In some tests I did on the 24.1 version of the game, FBs did great and for a while I recommended it to others but I had some doubts in general when they had the ball compared to WBs.
The first thing I suggested to implement in order to eliminate the screenshot issue was to somehow make them mandatory within the UI and I gave an example of the process of uploading bugs within the official SI forum.
Now regarding the problem with the same screenshots in different tactics I can't think of anything practical on FMArena's part, so it's up to the person uploading the tactic not to do that.
letsgo9 said: I saw other members doing the same, I choosed to no expose them... but in the end Its my choice and I undestand them. Expand Sure it's everyone's choice whether to talk about something they see happening and it's wrong but, as I said before, that's disrespectful to others who take the time to test their tactics, take screenshots and generally follow the rules that have been laid out here at FMArena to date.
The purpose of this whole conversation, at least from me, is not to condemn @CSTG KANE but to say the right thing based on the rules that have been set and to vindicate those who follow the rules faithfully. It is not a matter of right or wrong in general. There are several different ways of operating but once these rules are set we have to follow them. I think it's clear.
@letsgo9 We all follow some rules here. Otherwise everyone would do whatever they wanted and we would generally be like animals in the jungle.
Think of me uploading 30 tactics in 10 minutes without running a test on my own and 5 people also doing that. The rest would wait around 1-2 weeks to test their tactics. It is also not disrespect from us to @CSTG KANE but the opposite. As I have said above in my previous post we could all do this but we don't do it out of respect for the time others waste trying their own tactics.
CSTG KANE said: In fact, I can play the whole season with 38 tactics XD
I admit to using the same picture to save time, but he did play with multiple tactics Expand This is an important issue that @juwow has raised and indeed most of us have not noticed it.
We all, because of the rules that FMArena has, run the tests over and over again to upload screenshots. You, however, are trying to save time that the rest of us could be doing too. I hope the moderators will address the issue. @Zippo & @Droid
I have seen that a new section has been created exclusively for Testing League and I don't know if it would be more appropriate to create a new thread about this small case but I would like to ask the following about the testing league:
1. It says here that within the testing league no rotation happens for any team (including AI teams) however this seems to be something that is not the case and I wanted to ask if squad rotation of AI teams affects/increases the RNG? 2. Within matches the AI managers and assistant managers (of user controlled teams) do players subs but the 'Use of Subs' attribute is different for each of them individually. Does this play a role in the sub strategy and in the results and if so, does this also affect the RNG?
If you take the best 200 AI managers in the game then:
- 35% of them have 4-3-3 Preferred Formation - 35% of them have 4-2-3-1 Preferred Formation - 20% of them have "different variations of 5 at the back formation" Preferred Formation - 10% of them have 4-4-2 Preferred Formation
So 70% of 200 best AI managers in the game play with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
Also, look at the performance of AI's 5-2-3, it's significantly worse than AI's 4-2-3-1 or AI's 4-2-3-1.
We tested the rest of AI formations and they did even worse than AI's 5-2-3 so what's the point in having in the testing league?
According to our data If one tactic does better than other tactic vs AI's 4-2-3-1 or AI's 4-2-3-1 then it also will do better against other AI formations which are even weaker. Expand How did you test all the formations? AI against AI?
If we had a H2H tactic testing league with all the existing formations that the game has for AI managers then we would have a more accurate answer I believe on this case.
0desty0 said: Thank you for that. To complete and maybe help, I used to use those kind of files already available here : https://theffm.co.uk/category/spreadsheets/ Expand I didn't know about the one you sent me but I was sure there were many similar ones. I have written it in my original post. The differences sometimes are the formulas used within the spreadsheets and since I had already made one for myself for FM22 I thought this year I would update it and post it here.
** UPDATE ** - Simplified the process by removing extra sheets/views that weren't needed and combined the rest in one. - Each rating now translated in percentages(%). - Fixed some formulas and formats.
I think this is a good test and so we will know which formation performs better against the 3 formations used by the FM-Arena tactic testing league. This would be even better if we tested it on the other formations that the game has too.
For me too!
Delicious said: At first i did believe it was like you said on FM23, that there was an hidden "multiplier" like pass into space + take more risk was rising it to 20 (example).
But literally they are the same thing on FM24. And not every role needs it. Even Hold up is doing something good. (Or maybe is another cosmetic feature, can't understand from the game, because i can't notice any difference).
But the CF(su) results are leading me to thinking the contrary.
I had said what the game devs told me. The instructions that "tend" to be the same for both team and players are those that have sliders. For example 'Trigger Press', 'Passing Directness' etc.
Pass Into Space + Take More Risks are not 100% related. While they do have to do with passing in general, there are some differences in terms of risk. That's why in some positions/roles you don't need 'Take More Risks'.
I don't know if is in a positive or negative way.
My brother perhaps I did not explain my question well. Certainly not making in-match subs will have an impact and the test will not be as reliable. My point is that maybe the 'Use of Subs' attribute has something to do with when these subs are made and if they are made in general.
An example:
- The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 1 may not make subs in-match or may make them quite late - for example in the 85th minute or later.
- The manager with 'Use of Subs' value 20 may make subs very quickly and in every game.
This again would have an effect on the results as a more rested player in the game would have their ability at full capacity while those who are tired would be -3/-5 in every attribute due to fatigue.
The question for this case actually is if the “Use of Subs” attribute has an effect of when and/or if subs occur inside the game.
I used what Delicious stated above with the WB cross more often combo did that and maybe like Delicious is saying its a bit of a dice roll however 3 Point Difference seems probably better to use FB
That's why I said above when I tested them in my own tests they were more reliable in many parts of the game. Definitely a slight change though, it only has to do with the RNG. The goal is to find the weakness of ME, i.e. how your team builds up and how your team attacks, and try to use the right roles and team/player instructions to break it down.
FBs alone gave good results regardless of what roles were around them but that again we can find the best combination to maximize the effect.
Delicious said: -^ or maybe cross from byline is the malus.
It could, but I think "Get Further Forward" does already a lot of work along with the team and player mentality.
I feel like maybe in 3 CB formations the WB needs a bit more input to do his work but in this shape almost anything can work I believe
I think the key on FB(a) is ‘Cross More Often’ as @Delicious also said. Low crossing on FM24 is very powerful.
Now regarding the problem with the same screenshots in different tactics I can't think of anything practical on FMArena's part, so it's up to the person uploading the tactic not to do that.
Sure it's everyone's choice whether to talk about something they see happening and it's wrong but, as I said before, that's disrespectful to others who take the time to test their tactics, take screenshots and generally follow the rules that have been laid out here at FMArena to date.
The purpose of this whole conversation, at least from me, is not to condemn @CSTG KANE but to say the right thing based on the rules that have been set and to vindicate those who follow the rules faithfully. It is not a matter of right or wrong in general. There are several different ways of operating but once these rules are set we have to follow them. I think it's clear.
Think of me uploading 30 tactics in 10 minutes without running a test on my own and 5 people also doing that. The rest would wait around 1-2 weeks to test their tactics. It is also not disrespect from us to @CSTG KANE but the opposite. As I have said above in my previous post we could all do this but we don't do it out of respect for the time others waste trying their own tactics.
I admit to using the same picture to save time, but he did play with multiple tactics
This is an important issue that @juwow has raised and indeed most of us have not noticed it.
We all, because of the rules that FMArena has, run the tests over and over again to upload screenshots. You, however, are trying to save time that the rest of us could be doing too. I hope the moderators will address the issue. @Zippo & @Droid
Thank you!
I have seen that a new section has been created exclusively for Testing League and I don't know if it would be more appropriate to create a new thread about this small case but I would like to ask the following about the testing league:
1. It says here that within the testing league no rotation happens for any team (including AI teams) however this seems to be something that is not the case and I wanted to ask if squad rotation of AI teams affects/increases the RNG?
2. Within matches the AI managers and assistant managers (of user controlled teams) do players subs but the 'Use of Subs' attribute is different for each of them individually. Does this play a role in the sub strategy and in the results and if so, does this also affect the RNG?
Thank you!
Removed 'Sit Narrower' from DRL & AMRL.
Added: Throw It Long, Slow Pace Down, Get Stuck In
Removed: Fairly Narrow, Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly
If you take the best 200 AI managers in the game then:
- 35% of them have 4-3-3 Preferred Formation
- 35% of them have 4-2-3-1 Preferred Formation
- 20% of them have "different variations of 5 at the back formation" Preferred Formation
- 10% of them have 4-4-2 Preferred Formation
So 70% of 200 best AI managers in the game play with 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
Also, look at the performance of AI's 5-2-3, it's significantly worse than AI's 4-2-3-1 or AI's 4-2-3-1.
We tested the rest of AI formations and they did even worse than AI's 5-2-3 so what's the point in having in the testing league?
According to our data If one tactic does better than other tactic vs AI's 4-2-3-1 or AI's 4-2-3-1 then it also will do better against other AI formations which are even weaker.
How did you test all the formations?
AI against AI?
To complete and maybe help, I used to use those kind of files already available here : https://theffm.co.uk/category/spreadsheets/
I didn't know about the one you sent me but I was sure there were many similar ones. I have written it in my original post. The differences sometimes are the formulas used within the spreadsheets and since I had already made one for myself for FM22 I thought this year I would update it and post it here.
- Simplified the process by removing extra sheets/views that weren't needed and combined the rest in one.
- Each rating now translated in percentages(%).
- Fixed some formulas and formats.
Good idea @Mark!
Added: Focus Play, Fairly Narrow, Distribute Quickly
Removed: Distribute To Centre-Backs, Slow Pace Down
Tweaks on all PIs.