Mnj said: Thank you ZaZ and Mark for all your work! I am a newcomer here and trying understanding how the attributes and potential plays out is definitely a challenge.
I already downloaded Mark's filter and I would like to compare them with yours ZaZ but the WeTransfer link expired I would be very grateful if you could upload it again. I am playing mostly in lower league so it may be better to find cheap players.
I was also wondering if you guys ever tried playing with negative percentages in the Genie rating for the expensive attributes with little effects? I vaguely remember that negative percentages worked in previous versions but I am not sure. Expand
I cant say I have ever tried using negative percentages.
Well it is good to see this tactic test a bit better in the new test league and updated match engine.
I have started successfully and have been using a suite of 3 of my tactics in lower leagues with the new match engine. Running my normally 3 sides in different countries. This year going for really low leagues using databases from FM Scout.
I am playing O'Connor Knights in the Canberra Premier League in Australia, Tier 4 of the Australia Full Pyramid database by Weiry which has promotion and relegation the whole way up. I took over mid season when they were under performing and so far unbeaten and into the top half which just meets the Boards expectations.
Tyreso FF (a nod to TFF the great tactician) in Swedish Second Division South Svealand League is my second team. I took over when they were last after 9 of 28 rounds on 5 points. now out of relegation zone with a 3-1 win and a 4-0 win. No new database required to play this one. Just need to stay up so I can try and get promoted next season. I was expected to fight bravely against relegation. And if I don't, this manager will be out of a job as I don't think there is a playable league below this.
Last side is Glasgow United in Scotland, in the West of Scotland Conference B League. This is the 7th tier using the FM22 Scotland Lower Leagues Full Scottish Pyramid by Mozza. Only in preseason so far. Glasgow United are predicted to finish 11th of 15 so I will need to at least meet that to stay away from relegation. I cant see any of these getting promotion this season but I am playing the long game. I need to keep reading Sir Alex Ferguson's approach to planning long term and keeping players happy.
I decided against Brexit this year so went away from the England and moved to Scotland. In the lower leagues having Brexit limits the players you can access after the first year. Started with the Scottish preseason at 5 July hence coming in halfway through Sweden and Australia. I haven't had much in the way of buying players as all these clubs have little or no money and low expectations in their leagues. I have lost one player across the 3 sides and bought in 2 players. I used my Genie Scout Ratings and got 2 good DCs for the leagues I am in.
When I looked at the ratings for my tactics, prior to Dragons Den being tested, I noticed that Dragons Breath was in the top 10 for goal difference and Dragons Breath 3.1 was leading the goals scored for this match engine. Under the original FM22 FM Arena testing Dragons Den had the best defence of my tactics so I went with Dragons Breath as my main tactic, Dragons Breath 3.1 to attack and score goals and Dragons Den to close out games.
Now we have Dragons Den tested with the new match engine I wont be changing my approach. Dragons Breath is equal 8th on goal difference, Dragons Breath 3.1 leads the most goals scored and Dragons Den is 11th for best defence, and also saves the energy of players. The other nice thing about using these 3 tactics is that they are easy to move between as the base structures are quite similar. To move from the main tactic to the attacking one the CM Attack moves to ST AF. To move from the main tactic to defensive the ST F9 moves back to AM SS. To move between Attacking and Defensive is a little more with ST AF moving back to CM Attack and ST F9 back to AM SS. Late in the game this isn't a big issue though.
Combine this approach with a decent training regime, @ZaZ morale approach and shouts and a decent scout process and the game doesn't seem that hard at the moment, I sure there will be some rocky times but having the confidence in the system certainly helps. I will post again a bit further down the track. I am definitely having fun at the moment and hope to take these clubs far with this save. Money will be the first big issue though. There isn't much around with any of these clubs. And it will be a long time before they start competing for the same players.
Already there is a large discrepancy between their abilities. I thought these clubs would be quite close in terms of ability but it is not the case. And there is a large spread between players abilities in each of the 3 clubs. I hope to be able to buy in more capable players as we lose the fear of relegation and get the Boards to see we have a bright future in moving up the leagues.
I have also redone my assessment of attributes that can be be improved for each position through training for this year. And the winners are (drum roll please):
These are in order. You should check each of your players to see where the best improvements can be made and then set their individual training focus. These attributes are not always easily identifiable. In individual training focus they are sometimes hidden eg Decisions for a DC is Defensive Positioning. Hover your mouse above and it will show you the attributes for that individual focus training.
This is based on the cost and importance of each attribute. I am not convinced about the Acc for GKs but time will tell.
Yes. These files seem to be able to be used across games. Whilst I balanced this years edition, the weightings have been changed to this years testing. I suspect they will be fine for last years game but I haven't tested it. Let us know how it goes. At some stage I intend to complete last years save.
I am not a fan of doing a heap of work for nothing. If you were going to retest, maybe only the top 10 or 20 tactics to see how it impacted. I am sure we will be more interested when the first update comes out. I haven't been able to find out when they usually do it. Have you got info on the likely timeframe?
saycarramrod said: If you simply drop the file in the Ratings folder, you can simply click "Rating" in Genie Scout and the file will be there to select. No need to Edit and save as your own file name. Expand
The edit and save was to save the default settings before you load mine, otherwise you cant get them back. I have a copy so can make it available if anyone forgets and wants it.
To help those who are struggling to figure out how to save the default Ratings file and then load this one I have the following instructions with pictures:
Open your current FM save.
Download FM Genie Scout if you don't already have it. I recommend the g version which requires a small donation. I like to keep such helpful tools going.
Make sure you have downloaded my Ratings file called MDW22.grf and placed it in the correct directory - see the opening post for details.
Open Genie Scout and load your game into the tool.
Open up Edit Player Ratings.
A dialogue box will open up with the ratings information. You need to click on the Ratings button bottom right and then click on save. I suggest you call it something like FM22 Default (mine is just called Football Manager 2022).
Then load my rating file.
Now your Genie Scout should show ratings as per my calculations.
Rince said: In FM21 there was some guy on Korean FM forum that won EPL with only 1 CA players. He did a test and set all the "unimportant" attributes ( according to the attributes rating table ) to 1 and few important to 20 and he easily won the EPL. He did a huge post about it on the Korean FM forum. So the attributes ratings table is real deal.
I've been picking players with accordance to the attributes rating table for long time and it's been working like a charm to me. Expand
I do recall that experiment. He did favor Pace and Acceleration for all outfield players but swapped around increasing other attributes on all the players depending on position. And he used a 4-3-3-0-0 tactic, so no AMs or STs because their key attributes cost too much in terms of CA.
I am not a fan of changing player attributes to win games. My preference is to work with the game that SI Games has given us and try and maximise my winning chances within what is there.
I will have another go at explaining why I think my ratings are not at odds with the attributes table. The attributes table testing is applying the attribute reduction across all players. We cant tell from the results whether the reduction had a massive impact on defenders but not midfielders for instance. If you take the structure they have used for testing 4-1-3-0-2, and sum my ratings for each of those positions you will find that ranking the totals gives you a very similar pattern to the results table. However the important attributes by position vary.
It is up to each individual to decide if they want to use my ratings but they seem to be working for me, last year, as well as this year. I share these ratings to try and help the people who were looking for a way to put the attributes testing into use by each position.
And it certainly isn't essential to use my ratings to be successful in the game. Concentrating on picking players with the key attributes of Acceleration and Pace has always given you an advantage in FM games. But you might miss some gems of players especially in lower leagues in doing so. These are the ones I am interested in.
Wigo said: hey! amazing stuff! Just one question... in FM-ARENA testing table it shows that some attributes has very less impact like "Off the ball" or "Finishing" but in that Fmscout attributes table it shows that these attributes actualy very important for striker role... so where is the truth? Expand
It is somewhere in between. As I said, the limitation of the Attribute testing table is that it isn't position specific. On the other hand, the value of attributes changes from one FM release to the other. So I have attempted to blend these to get to a result that we can all use.
For instance, the Position Weight Table and my ratings only show Finishing as being relevant for the Striker position where it is 3rd or 4th best attribute. Whereas Acceleration and Pace are relevant to almost all positions and mainly top two for most positions.
Assuming that the attributes table results are the same for all positions is not correct. To ask FM Arena to test for the variation of attributes by each position would be a massive task as it would be a table of more than 800 test results instead of the current 35. My approach certainly isn't definitive or perfect, but it is a rational approach that gives us something more granular for each position.
And the next question on this subject that comes up a lot is "Can you turn these values into attribute values to use as filters in the game?". This seems like an easy question, however when you think about it, its totally dependent on your save and what league you are playing. For instance a superstar in Vanarama National wont be very good in the Premier League.
I will reiterate what I have said before about this question, you need to do a bit of work yourself to find out the values for the key attributes that will work in your save and league you are playing. If you go to your Squad page in the game and then to Analyst Report and Comparison, you can see how your current squad compares to others in your League on each Attribute. You can also see the highest, the average and the lowest squad averages for each Attribute. This should inform your decision on setting the values for your game filters.
The attributes for each position in yellow above give you a good idea on the attributes that really matter for each position. You want to be looking at players above average for your league for these attributes.
stefanopt said: Is there anyway we can get a .json version of the file? Expand
I am unsure how to produce a .json file. The values are posted in the attached link so you might be able to get someone to do it from this information.
This question comes up a lot on the forum. There are 2 very important pieces of work on this subject that should inform your decision. The first is the attribute testing done by @Zippohttps://fm-arena.com/table/13-fm22-attributes-ratings/. This shows the testing of each attribute in FM22 and the impact of reducing the attribute score has on results. The limitation of this work is that it is not positional. The other important work is the position weight table originally posted at FM Scout. This gives a sense of the value of each attribute for each position.
I have used these pieces to calculate values or weightings for the Genie Scout tool. You can use these filters for comparison of players when you are buying players or to determine the best player for each role in your tactic from your squad.
Here is the download link to my updated ratings file for Genie Scout.
You should save the standard FMGS ratings file before loading and changing this file so you can reload the default if you are not happy with my ratings.
The standard place for Genie Scout ratings files is C:\FM Genie Scout 22g\Ratings. If you did a custom install it will be in a folder called Ratings under the FMGS install directory. Once you have copied the file to the correct location you should be able to select my ratings file by clicking on the GS symbol in the top left of the screen, and then clicking Ratings in the drop down menu, and then MDW22 from the sub menu.
I have adjusted the weightings this year to try and align all the positions, as previously the ratings were skewed with Wingers having a much higher rating.
A reminder here that Genie Scout doesn't take into account the positional ability of players in their ratings calculations. Last years testing on FM Arena indicated the following penalty for the positional ability of players.
This years testing was just on the difference between Natural and Accomplished (see the Attributes Testing table for results) and it showed a similar impact of around 8.5% penalty this year.
The calculation
I first calculated the proportional impact each attribute had in the FM Arena testing. For example Acceleration - default PPM was 1.648, reducing Acceleration by 4 points resulted in 1.039 PPM. The calculation was 1-(1.039/1.648) or 36.95%. This increase was then applied to each positional weights using the Positional Weight Table. Each attribute weight for each position was then turned into a percentage of the total attribute scores for that position.
Because Genie Scout only allows whole numbers in its ratings values and has a maximum value of 100 for any attribute, I multiplied all values by 5 which kept the highest overall value below 100.
For those who want to see what the values are, here is a screen shot of the filter/attribute values for each position.
I hope this helps someone.
Enjoy
UPDATES
Original Default GS Ratings file
Here is my copy of the original default ratings file
After looking at the percentage impact in the FM Arena Attributes testing table for Playing Position Rating over the last few years, it worked out to be very close to 2.5% per point or 1/40th. Then I calculated what Genie Scout uses for a reduction, which is quite a minor adjustment. I took a download of around 1000 wingers and looked at the differences in ratings against their positional ratings out of 20. Moving from 1/40th to 1/46th was the nearest to the adjustment.
Here is the formula for Excel =A1*(1-(20-B1)/46)
In the formula A1 is the location of the rating you want to manipulate and B1 is the location of the position score out of 20.
This is about 2.17% reduction for each point under 20.
In summary, you will need to allow for the adjustment for their positional rating out of 20 ie you need to multiply their GS Rating by 100% minus the difference between 20 and their positional rating multiplied by 2.17%. For example if their GS rating is 50% and their positional rating is 19, it is 20 - 19= 1 multiplied by 2.17% is 2.17%. Take this off 100% = 97.83% multiplied by 50.00% is 48.91%.
Changes - Eliminated a lot of the general instructions, simplified the tactic a little. - Changed some PI to fit with some of my newer, more succesful tactics. - Permanently changed to SS and 2 AF - Advanced Segundo Volantes to CM-Attack
Expand
That is my original favorite formation from when I played before FM14. I might now need to do a version based on Dragons Breath for old times sake. So many memories. I so hope we can get this working for FM22.
I already downloaded Mark's filter and I would like to compare them with yours ZaZ but the WeTransfer link expired I would be very grateful if you could upload it again. I am playing mostly in lower league so it may be better to find cheap players.
I was also wondering if you guys ever tried playing with negative percentages in the Genie rating for the expensive attributes with little effects? I vaguely remember that negative percentages worked in previous versions but I am not sure.
I cant say I have ever tried using negative percentages.
I have started successfully and have been using a suite of 3 of my tactics in lower leagues with the new match engine. Running my normally 3 sides in different countries. This year going for really low leagues using databases from FM Scout.
I am playing O'Connor Knights in the Canberra Premier League in Australia, Tier 4 of the Australia Full Pyramid database by Weiry which has promotion and relegation the whole way up. I took over mid season when they were under performing and so far unbeaten and into the top half which just meets the Boards expectations.
Tyreso FF (a nod to TFF the great tactician) in Swedish Second Division South Svealand League is my second team. I took over when they were last after 9 of 28 rounds on 5 points. now out of relegation zone with a 3-1 win and a 4-0 win. No new database required to play this one. Just need to stay up so I can try and get promoted next season. I was expected to fight bravely against relegation. And if I don't, this manager will be out of a job as I don't think there is a playable league below this.
Last side is Glasgow United in Scotland, in the West of Scotland Conference B League. This is the 7th tier using the FM22 Scotland Lower Leagues Full Scottish Pyramid by Mozza. Only in preseason so far. Glasgow United are predicted to finish 11th of 15 so I will need to at least meet that to stay away from relegation. I cant see any of these getting promotion this season but I am playing the long game. I need to keep reading Sir Alex Ferguson's approach to planning long term and keeping players happy.
I decided against Brexit this year so went away from the England and moved to Scotland. In the lower leagues having Brexit limits the players you can access after the first year. Started with the Scottish preseason at 5 July hence coming in halfway through Sweden and Australia. I haven't had much in the way of buying players as all these clubs have little or no money and low expectations in their leagues. I have lost one player across the 3 sides and bought in 2 players. I used my Genie Scout Ratings and got 2 good DCs for the leagues I am in.
When I looked at the ratings for my tactics, prior to Dragons Den being tested, I noticed that Dragons Breath was in the top 10 for goal difference and Dragons Breath 3.1 was leading the goals scored for this match engine. Under the original FM22 FM Arena testing Dragons Den had the best defence of my tactics so I went with Dragons Breath as my main tactic, Dragons Breath 3.1 to attack and score goals and Dragons Den to close out games.
Now we have Dragons Den tested with the new match engine I wont be changing my approach. Dragons Breath is equal 8th on goal difference, Dragons Breath 3.1 leads the most goals scored and Dragons Den is 11th for best defence, and also saves the energy of players. The other nice thing about using these 3 tactics is that they are easy to move between as the base structures are quite similar. To move from the main tactic to the attacking one the CM Attack moves to ST AF. To move from the main tactic to defensive the ST F9 moves back to AM SS. To move between Attacking and Defensive is a little more with ST AF moving back to CM Attack and ST F9 back to AM SS. Late in the game this isn't a big issue though.
Combine this approach with a decent training regime, @ZaZ morale approach and shouts and a decent scout process and the game doesn't seem that hard at the moment, I sure there will be some rocky times but having the confidence in the system certainly helps. I will post again a bit further down the track. I am definitely having fun at the moment and hope to take these clubs far with this save. Money will be the first big issue though. There isn't much around with any of these clubs. And it will be a long time before they start competing for the same players.
Already there is a large discrepancy between their abilities. I thought these clubs would be quite close in terms of ability but it is not the case. And there is a large spread between players abilities in each of the 3 clubs. I hope to be able to buy in more capable players as we lose the fear of relegation and get the Boards to see we have a bright future in moving up the leagues.
what is the difference between 2 table ?
ta2199 said: same question
Read the opening post. I think that is all we will get.
Here is my copy of the original default ratings file mate
Default Ratings File
These are in order. You should check each of your players to see where the best improvements can be made and then set their individual training focus. These attributes are not always easily identifiable. In individual training focus they are sometimes hidden eg Decisions for a DC is Defensive Positioning. Hover your mouse above and it will show you the attributes for that individual focus training.
This is based on the cost and importance of each attribute. I am not convinced about the Acc for GKs but time will tell.
Yes. These files seem to be able to be used across games. Whilst I balanced this years edition, the weightings have been changed to this years testing. I suspect they will be fine for last years game but I haven't tested it. Let us know how it goes. At some stage I intend to complete last years save.
Thanks, this is a very interesting development
The edit and save was to save the default settings before you load mine, otherwise you cant get them back. I have a copy so can make it available if anyone forgets and wants it.
Open your current FM save.
Download FM Genie Scout if you don't already have it. I recommend the g version which requires a small donation. I like to keep such helpful tools going.
Make sure you have downloaded my Ratings file called MDW22.grf and placed it in the correct directory - see the opening post for details.
Open Genie Scout and load your game into the tool.
Open up Edit Player Ratings.
A dialogue box will open up with the ratings information. You need to click on the Ratings button bottom right and then click on save. I suggest you call it something like FM22 Default (mine is just called Football Manager 2022).
Then load my rating file.
Now your Genie Scout should show ratings as per my calculations.
I've been picking players with accordance to the attributes rating table for long time and it's been working like a charm to me.
I do recall that experiment. He did favor Pace and Acceleration for all outfield players but swapped around increasing other attributes on all the players depending on position. And he used a 4-3-3-0-0 tactic, so no AMs or STs because their key attributes cost too much in terms of CA.
I am not a fan of changing player attributes to win games. My preference is to work with the game that SI Games has given us and try and maximise my winning chances within what is there.
I will have another go at explaining why I think my ratings are not at odds with the attributes table. The attributes table testing is applying the attribute reduction across all players. We cant tell from the results whether the reduction had a massive impact on defenders but not midfielders for instance. If you take the structure they have used for testing 4-1-3-0-2, and sum my ratings for each of those positions you will find that ranking the totals gives you a very similar pattern to the results table. However the important attributes by position vary.
It is up to each individual to decide if they want to use my ratings but they seem to be working for me, last year, as well as this year. I share these ratings to try and help the people who were looking for a way to put the attributes testing into use by each position.
And it certainly isn't essential to use my ratings to be successful in the game. Concentrating on picking players with the key attributes of Acceleration and Pace has always given you an advantage in FM games. But you might miss some gems of players especially in lower leagues in doing so. These are the ones I am interested in.
It is somewhere in between. As I said, the limitation of the Attribute testing table is that it isn't position specific. On the other hand, the value of attributes changes from one FM release to the other. So I have attempted to blend these to get to a result that we can all use.
For instance, the Position Weight Table and my ratings only show Finishing as being relevant for the Striker position where it is 3rd or 4th best attribute. Whereas Acceleration and Pace are relevant to almost all positions and mainly top two for most positions.
Assuming that the attributes table results are the same for all positions is not correct. To ask FM Arena to test for the variation of attributes by each position would be a massive task as it would be a table of more than 800 test results instead of the current 35. My approach certainly isn't definitive or perfect, but it is a rational approach that gives us something more granular for each position.
I hope this helps
I will reiterate what I have said before about this question, you need to do a bit of work yourself to find out the values for the key attributes that will work in your save and league you are playing. If you go to your Squad page in the game and then to Analyst Report and Comparison, you can see how your current squad compares to others in your League on each Attribute. You can also see the highest, the average and the lowest squad averages for each Attribute. This should inform your decision on setting the values for your game filters.
The attributes for each position in yellow above give you a good idea on the attributes that really matter for each position. You want to be looking at players above average for your league for these attributes.
I hope this helps.
I am unsure how to produce a .json file. The values are posted in the attached link so you might be able to get someone to do it from this information.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/1949-fm22-positional-filters-what-are-the-best-attributes-for-each-position/
I have used these pieces to calculate values or weightings for the Genie Scout tool. You can use these filters for comparison of players when you are buying players or to determine the best player for each role in your tactic from your squad.
Here is the download link to my updated ratings file for Genie Scout.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r55jwbdutrq19n6/MDW22.grf?dl=0
You should save the standard FMGS ratings file before loading and changing this file so you can reload the default if you are not happy with my ratings.
The standard place for Genie Scout ratings files is C:\FM Genie Scout 22g\Ratings. If you did a custom install it will be in a folder called Ratings under the FMGS install directory. Once you have copied the file to the correct location you should be able to select my ratings file by clicking on the GS symbol in the top left of the screen, and then clicking Ratings in the drop down menu, and then MDW22 from the sub menu.
I have adjusted the weightings this year to try and align all the positions, as previously the ratings were skewed with Wingers having a much higher rating.
A reminder here that Genie Scout doesn't take into account the positional ability of players in their ratings calculations. Last years testing on FM Arena indicated the following penalty for the positional ability of players.
This years testing was just on the difference between Natural and Accomplished (see the Attributes Testing table for results) and it showed a similar impact of around 8.5% penalty this year.
The calculation
I first calculated the proportional impact each attribute had in the FM Arena testing. For example Acceleration - default PPM was 1.648, reducing Acceleration by 4 points resulted in 1.039 PPM. The calculation was 1-(1.039/1.648) or 36.95%. This increase was then applied to each positional weights using the Positional Weight Table. Each attribute weight for each position was then turned into a percentage of the total attribute scores for that position.
Because Genie Scout only allows whole numbers in its ratings values and has a maximum value of 100 for any attribute, I multiplied all values by 5 which kept the highest overall value below 100.
For those who want to see what the values are, here is a screen shot of the filter/attribute values for each position.
I hope this helps someone.
Enjoy
UPDATES
Original Default GS Ratings file
Here is my copy of the original default ratings file
Default Ratings File
ykykyky Ratings file
Here is the link to the balanced version ykykyk balanced ratings file
Adjustment for positional rating PLEASE NOTE
After looking at the percentage impact in the FM Arena Attributes testing table for Playing Position Rating over the last few years, it worked out to be very close to 2.5% per point or 1/40th. Then I calculated what Genie Scout uses for a reduction, which is quite a minor adjustment. I took a download of around 1000 wingers and looked at the differences in ratings against their positional ratings out of 20. Moving from 1/40th to 1/46th was the nearest to the adjustment.
Here is the formula for Excel =A1*(1-(20-B1)/46)
In the formula A1 is the location of the rating you want to manipulate and B1 is the location of the position score out of 20.
This is about 2.17% reduction for each point under 20.
In summary, you will need to allow for the adjustment for their positional rating out of 20 ie you need to multiply their GS Rating by 100% minus the difference between 20 and their positional rating multiplied by 2.17%. For example if their GS rating is 50% and their positional rating is 19, it is 20 - 19= 1 multiplied by 2.17% is 2.17%. Take this off 100% = 97.83% multiplied by 50.00% is 48.91%.
Changes
- Eliminated a lot of the general instructions, simplified the tactic a little.
- Changed some PI to fit with some of my newer, more succesful tactics.
- Permanently changed to SS and 2 AF
- Advanced Segundo Volantes to CM-Attack
That is my original favorite formation from when I played before FM14. I might now need to do a version based on Dragons Breath for old times sake. So many memories. I so hope we can get this working for FM22.
I think it deserves having its own thread
Thanks @Zippo. Do you arrange that or do you want me to start a new thread and copy this across?