@Zippo thanks for starting the discussion going on this topic. As you say, it has generated a bit of discussion of late.
I think the starting point should be why people use the site. I think there are a few different groups of people.
There are a core of people who love creating tactics and set pieces who are striving to try and crack a formation and structure that will be unbeatable, generally through analyzing what works. Some of this is obviously trial and error. An example of this is @ZaZ who can always be relied upon to come up with a very competitive tactic, with little or no reliance on tactics of other people. Most of these people who also love the collaboration and competition that comes into play as the tactics and formations evolve.
The other extreme are people who come to the site only to try and find a tactic that they can plug and play. They have no interest in playing around with tactics only in playing the game. Clearly there are plenty of people who sit between these two extremes.
I don't think it is a high proportion of people that are intentionally stealing other people's ideas and I also think that we have seem in years gone by that some minor changes can be the difference between a really good tactic and an also ran tactic, so I wouldn't like to see tactics not tested with small changes.
What we don't want to do is to slow down the evolving and testing of tactics that allow creators to analyze what works.
Some of the instances of non attribution recently have come from newbies to the site. I think pointing out to these people on what we as a community expect in terms of attributing the basis of the tactic is sufficient for an innocent first offence.
Maybe to assist people understand this is what we are looking for, an additional two questions for authors before they submit a tactic would help as follows:
Is your tactic based on an existing Tactic that has been tested? If so which Tactic or Tactics?
And do the same with Set Pieces. Are your Set Pieces based on or copied from an existing Set Piece routine that is from a Tactic that has been tested? If so which Tactic or Tactics?
This post is just trying to stimulate some more thought on this topic. I will have a bit more of a think and post again. I am definitely interested in the views of others.
ZaZ said: Added a version with Ease Off Tackles to compare and see how it goes. In my tests, I couldn't catch much difference. If results are alike, then the player instruction should become standard (at least for this setup, should test for others) since it reduces cards and energy cost. Expand
Isn't it interesting that it doesn't change the rating. You were right. This may mean we can stop a lot of the red cards people have been getting.
This is the best of my tactics using ZaZ Testing League. Man City on top and Norwich in 8th. I have based it on Dragons Breath and changed some of the PIs. Also adapted Fanecas set pieces. I have run this very successfully in a couple of lower league jobs. My current save is with St Albans in VNS and C.D. Coria in Spain. Both were expected to be relegated and I am leading the League in both comps albeit early in the season.
Thanks to @ZaZ for the Testing League and for the insight into Player Instructions and for just doing a great job of testing the boundaries and coming up with brilliant tactics. Thanks also to @NeOnHD92 for the set pieces which were the best I found for this formation.
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data. Expand
I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow.
ZaZ said: It's about time to start experimenting with set pieces. I'm creating this thread so people can share routines and results. If anyone wants to help, I would recommend to follow these guidelines:
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data. Expand
Mate I will give it a go on Saturday when the grandkids are here and I cant play. Will try the tests overnight to see how long they run. Tomorrow is rain here and I want to keep my current save going. Really keen to get across set pieces again. Had a little play but not really enough time so far to get anything meaningful. There was one on FM Scout for corners that I was keen to try, and I think that long throws are much better this year, so far. The save helps immensely. Thanks
I have run this tactic a few times and it keeps coming up with well above average results. I am selecting sides that are expected to finish in the relegation zone and they keep making the play offs for promotion.
It is very attacking so leaks a few goals as most tactics seem to in this version of FM
This is the best result I have had with Carlisle and I have tested all the top tactics
NoSignal said: I tryed this on 3rd portugese leauge. Dont work well. 4 wins, 4 draws, 2 loses. Cant score more than 1 goal in game. I have pretty good team, better than in dulwitch but playing much worse mby bcs i joined during the season afer previous manager was sacked
Expand
You might need to give it a bit more time with a side like that, especially joining mid season. Your team is ranked towards the bottom of that League so results are not too bad. Can you train the players to the position and role you are using them in. It sometimes helps them learn the tactic quicker. Otherwise might be best to try another tactic that suits the players you have,I think Electro would suit that team, ZaZ.
Its true @ZaZ you can load them straight in and play them. Also FM20 tactics. I haven't tried FM19 as they were strikerless and would not be so good in this version.
The Attribute testing is probably the most helpful from the last two seasons. Good to see that it continues and that we can still target players with good pace and acceleration, especially for lower league clubs.
NoSignal said: Sadly need to start new game. Didnt set up hide atributtes at start. Now i can See everythinh in players profile. Hate that. Now will tey with deepest English league. Dulwich Hamlet is my new club Expand
How did you go with your new save. I just started with CD Coria in Spain and St Albans Vanarama South in England. I am just getting through the preseason and haven't been able to add much quality to either squad. Pre season has been good in England so now hoping to kick the season off with a few wins.
Target Person said: 4132 seems to be strongest formation atm, I like this one because of very attacking mentality and AF+F9 pair instead of double AF so will happily give it a go
I wanted to ask if it's fine to use a No.10/AMC type at CM, and if F9 requires more pace or passing/technique? Thanks! Expand
I think AMCs work well as the CM Attack role so give it a go.
I generally individually train my key attacking players with Passing as it also includes Vision which I think is most important. And definitely Acceleration and Pace make a big difference
I think the starting point should be why people use the site. I think there are a few different groups of people.
There are a core of people who love creating tactics and set pieces who are striving to try and crack a formation and structure that will be unbeatable, generally through analyzing what works. Some of this is obviously trial and error. An example of this is @ZaZ who can always be relied upon to come up with a very competitive tactic, with little or no reliance on tactics of other people. Most of these people who also love the collaboration and competition that comes into play as the tactics and formations evolve.
The other extreme are people who come to the site only to try and find a tactic that they can plug and play. They have no interest in playing around with tactics only in playing the game. Clearly there are plenty of people who sit between these two extremes.
I don't think it is a high proportion of people that are intentionally stealing other people's ideas and I also think that we have seem in years gone by that some minor changes can be the difference between a really good tactic and an also ran tactic, so I wouldn't like to see tactics not tested with small changes.
What we don't want to do is to slow down the evolving and testing of tactics that allow creators to analyze what works.
Some of the instances of non attribution recently have come from newbies to the site. I think pointing out to these people on what we as a community expect in terms of attributing the basis of the tactic is sufficient for an innocent first offence.
Maybe to assist people understand this is what we are looking for, an additional two questions for authors before they submit a tactic would help as follows:
Is your tactic based on an existing Tactic that has been tested? If so which Tactic or Tactics?
And do the same with Set Pieces. Are your Set Pieces based on or copied from an existing Set Piece routine that is from a Tactic that has been tested? If so which Tactic or Tactics?
This post is just trying to stimulate some more thought on this topic. I will have a bit more of a think and post again. I am definitely interested in the views of others.
Isn't it interesting that it doesn't change the rating. You were right. This may mean we can stop a lot of the red cards people have been getting.
Thanks to @ZaZ for the Testing League and for the insight into Player Instructions and for just doing a great job of testing the boundaries and coming up with brilliant tactics. Thanks also to @NeOnHD92 for the set pieces which were the best I found for this formation.
I was waiting for a few more attributes to be tested, but might start putting it together
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
@Mark
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data.
I am going to run with testing 3 tactic formations, being ZaZ Orange 4-3-1-2, Dragons Breath 4-1-3-1 and Blitz 4-2-2W-2. These seem to be the basis for most of the tactics scoring 5.5 plus this season. I will take and adapt the set pieces from 10 tactics to test with each formation as follows: FM20 TFF Cerber, 424 RMD, Arrowhead 2.0, Blitz, Cruels Angel, Electro, Fanecas, Snow Halation V3, Zaz and ZaZ with adapted corners from FM Scout's suggested attacking corner winning tactic (ZaZ MDW). That is 30 tests. If I have time I will then run them 3 times to make 90 tests. They seem to run reasonably quickly in ZaZ test League so I will give results after the first 30 tests and then the next 30 tests and finally at the end. If a set piece routine looks too much like a previously tested one I will disregard it.
So that's the plan. Lets see how it goes. Hopefully I will get through the first run by this time tomorrow.
1. You can use any editor data for that (or none at all). I would recommend setting consistency and important matches of all players in the league to 20, and injury proneness to 1. My editor data is attached to this post.
2. Create a new game with the teams you want to use for testing (remember to disable first season transfers). Save a backup file on the very first day. My save file is attached here (can't attach to the post because it's over 20 mb).
3. Run my set pieces first and save results to use as reference. I am attaching three tactics with the same set pieces and different formations to this post (343 defenders, 433 strikers or 442). The positions got a bit messed up in FM-Arena table (because of me testing different shapes), but I fixed it properly now. I use Orange 1.0 for reference, which is the new name of Orange SS.
4. For each experiment, set up the same tactic with the desired routines, then go in vacation until the end of season (330 days on English Premier League), marking the option to use current tactics. Use the same save for all tests. I usually run three to five times, but feel free to use any methodology of testing you want.
5. The most important data to share are total points in the league (or points per match) and goal difference. If you want, you can also provide data from league > stats > team detailed > goals/conceded from corners, direct free kicks and indirect free kicks. For throw ins, the relevant data is in data hub > team > report > scoring/conceding > assists (it usually won't show anything since it's common to get 0 assists from throw ins).
You can also help with suggestions of routines to be tested.
@Mark
Note: If you use my save file, I believe you don't need to download the editor data.
Mate I will give it a go on Saturday when the grandkids are here and I cant play. Will try the tests overnight to see how long they run. Tomorrow is rain here and I want to keep my current save going. Really keen to get across set pieces again. Had a little play but not really enough time so far to get anything meaningful. There was one on FM Scout for corners that I was keen to try, and I think that long throws are much better this year, so far. The save helps immensely. Thanks
The latest patch is 22.1.1 which was released about 1 day ago - https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/559568-football-manager-2022-minor-update-2211-out-now/
The latest M.E. number is v22.2.0.0. and it hasn't been changing since the release.
I hope that helps.
Cheers.
Thanks mate. Just seemed like I was winning more easily after the patch
AM-su seems to provide a stable connection on the field. Maybe it's better than SS or AM-at.
I definitely agree in this formation
It is very attacking so leaks a few goals as most tactics seem to in this version of FM
This is the best result I have had with Carlisle and I have tested all the top tactics
You might need to give it a bit more time with a side like that, especially joining mid season. Your team is ranked towards the bottom of that League so results are not too bad. Can you train the players to the position and role you are using them in. It sometimes helps them learn the tactic quicker. Otherwise might be best to try another tactic that suits the players you have,I think Electro would suit that team, ZaZ.
How did you go with your new save. I just started with CD Coria in Spain and St Albans Vanarama South in England. I am just getting through the preseason and haven't been able to add much quality to either squad. Pre season has been good in England so now hoping to kick the season off with a few wins.
I wanted to ask if it's fine to use a No.10/AMC type at CM, and if F9 requires more pace or passing/technique? Thanks!
I think AMCs work well as the CM Attack role so give it a go.
I generally individually train my key attacking players with Passing as it also includes Vision which I think is most important. And definitely Acceleration and Pace make a big difference
And according to Genie Scout CD Coria should not be competitive although in real life they are not doing bad this season. Good luck and enjoy.
They look like pretty good results mate. Please let me know how it progresses