Mark said: I am now running more thorough testing to see which GS Ratings work best. I have taken the ZaZ EPL Test League and downloaded the ratings for EPL players for each ratings filter including the GS default. I set up coaches for the top 9 teams and set all tactics to ZaZ Blue DM. I will do at least 3 runs and then look at the predictions for each position versus the end player ratings for each position.
It should be interesting to see performance against this data set. Expand
Wow, that's way more than I asked for, but thanls a lot!
avonseller said: What roles and etc are under consideration to change if you can tell? Looking forward to the update I'll probably use this as my main 442 Expand
I got really sick (probably flu), so I will only continue when healed, since I'm feeling really bad.
However, this tactic is supposed to overload one side, so it will definitely not be made symmetric. I plan to start changing W-At to W-Su or DW-Su, WB-At to FB-At and maybe Mez-At to SS-At.
Ole said: Yes, that's what I did, I started using tactics from Knap, they worked until the moment when my team couldn't do anything at all... Expand
Remember to read "Squad Management" in the first post of Blue DM, as well as important attributes. Resting players from training after matches in tight weeks makes all the difference, as well as praising to increase morale.
He plays with ZaZ - Blue DM but you can take any top tactic from the table that suites better your team and have a great success in the lower leagues. Expand
Thanks! As long as you have one of the top tactics and a fast team (high pace and acceleration), you will dominate the lower leagues. If I remember well, it only becomes trouble at Sky Bet Championship and Premier League (TV money gap is too big).
Tavares82 said: Do these important attributes work for any tactic? Expand
Most top tactics have similar player and team instructions, so those attributes can work on any of them. It get's more tricky when a tactic uses very different roles or instructions, like low pace, hold back, ease off tackles, dribble less and so on.
Tejash said: @ZaZ do you feel white is better than the blue? I personally feel so having used your tactics for so long white gives instant results.. Expand
It's inconclusive. In my experiments, they are about the same, with a very small advantage to White, which could very well be the margin of error. In FM-Arena, they are also under the margin of error, as well as most tactics on the top 5 or 10.
mackforever said: Not in the version I downloaded. D-Line is set on Higher. Expand
I have just downloaded here from this page to test and defensive line is standard.
JamesFox100 said: first time I have ever achieved invicible season in the EPL is with this tactic, its something I have been trying to achieved for 3 years in FM! Expand
Gratz! I really think there is lots of potential in this tactic, this was just a raw version to see if the concept holds. I have just started testing some improvements on it and I believe it will get better.
End of season and we are the champions! It was an extremely easy season on the league, as well as Papa's John Cup (U23 weren't as strong as I feared). Considering how well my team did against opponents of League One, I think next season will be as easy as this one.
Nothing very special happened in the past ten matches. I got 9 days between matches and was able to give vacation to most players before the final of Papa's John Cup, and also got enough time to train preparation for all set pieces.
My wage budget for next season is €1.5M (per year), or triple of current. That means I can finally hire more scouts and buy from other teams, instead of relying only on free transfers. My goal for next season is to be promoted and maybe upgrade my training facilities, since board keep refusing it time and time again.
fm arena user said: And if You looking for CM and he has all this atributes high but laks Vision, Decision and Passing You still buy such player or player who is high with atributes above but laks speed Acceleration and stamina? Do You know what i mean? Are this atributes so overpowered they more important than obvious CM atributes? Expand
I always go for the faster ones. However, my opinion matters very little when we have two tables that tested players attributes, which are definitely a better input than my personal feeling.
Mark said: OK so I had a quick play with the ratings files. The first observation is that you need to balance the ratings files. I learned this from last years attempt. What do I mean by this, well have a look at the screenshot below. There should not be major discrepancies between positions ie you should be getting most positions covered in the top 50 or so top players.
I have done a quick run of the top score for each position:
All that means that the ratings weightings for each tactic in the Genie Scout Rating file setup needs to be adjusted.
Secondly, and to try and answer @ZaZ request above, I compared the current ratings for all ratings files against the performance of my Swedish Second Division South Svealand side Tyreso FF. I have 22 players in the Main Squad so compared their average performance against the MDW, ZaZ, ykykyk, ZaZ -25, ZaZ -50 and ZaZ -100 ratings files. I have only used ratings for the position selected.
Here are the results:
Disclaimer: I have used players out of the positions identified in the results, but in the main they have played the positions indicated. In addition I have used 2 main tactics, Dragons Breath that uses an MC instead of AMC, and ZaZ Blue DM, but given the ratings files don't all have MC ratings I just used AMC.
To answer @ZaZ question the ZaZ-100 ended up equal with MDW in picking 8 of the best 11 positional players. It does need balancing to make it more usable though. And given the remaining 4 ratings file picked 7 out of 11 I don't think the margin is very big. All are definitely usable.
Now if we look at average % difference from the best rated team the order is MDW, ykykyk, ZaZ -50, ZaZ -25, ZaZ, ZaZ -100.
Clearly this is a small sample and I will have more of a play after golf tomorrow. But I think if you wanted to use one of the ratings files above, I would go with the ZaZ -50. Expand
Thanks for the thorough analysis, Mark. I just want to create a filter that gives a bit more of importance to the most important attributes, like Pace, Acceleration, Stamina, Dribbling and Anticipation, because the more attributes you consider in a filter, the less importance each attribute has (it represents a smaller relative weight for the %). Doing that, it allows you to find good players for cheaper prince, since cost of players is directly linked to CA and reputation.
fm arena user said: What is in Your opinion 4 most important atributes for each position? in very simple words without any exel spreadshets please. I followed You thread last year and search players with Your guide, Pace, Accelertion, Flair, Decisions As my clubs DNA. Would this attributes be as important as last year? Expand
Pace, Acceleration, Stamina and Dribbling/Anticipation.
ykykyk05251 said: HI, Thank you for your interest in our research results. It is necessary to make some supplementary explanations to the research results so as not to be misleading. Stamina, in our system, we keep the players full in every game, and all players play the entire game. In the actual game, for those substitute players who occasionally play, stamina should not be as important as the results indicate. In a dense schedule, the stamina of the key players may be more important than the research results. Of course, it is related to the team's rotation strategy. Strength and Aggression, in order to simplify the entire training process, we actually discarded the injury game. Higher aggression will make the players more likely to get injured. This negative factor is not included in our experiment. In addition, our research has found that strength has the effect of avoiding serious injuries to a certain extent, so the importance of strength should be higher than that on the table. Punching, in fact, this attribute shows some negative effects in our research, and the weight in the table should be a negative number. However, due to a bug in our system, there are some problems with the processing of negative attributes, so accurate weight values are not obtained. 0 is manually set. Expand
Thanks for the explanation!
I believe the first point (setting condition to max before matches), should be a goal of any manager with proper rotation and resting after matches. It is achievable during most of the season except a couple of tight weeks, so it's not a big deal and I believe the conclusion about stamina still stands in real gameplay. About the second point (removing injuries), it can somehow be managed with a balanced squad. Removing injuries and setting condition to maximum are ways to simulate the human behaviour of rotating squad, because assistant manager is pretty bad at that.
Anyway, thanks for the hard work on the experiment! It gave us some nice input that will help lots of managers find the best players to overachieve in their games.
@Mark, I made three poor man's version and I would like to know your opinion in which one gives the best results. Can you test the three and tell me which one you like the most? Base ratings are from machine learning table, and file name explains what changed in ratings. All of them try to focus on most important attributes in some way.
Version 1: all ratings minus 25 (removes lower ratings and increases % gap of remaining) Version 2: all ratings under 50 minuts 25 (removes lower ratings and keeps gap of top) Version 3: all ratings minus difference to 100 (removes lower ratings and increases absolute gap of remaining) * Gap means the difference in rating between two attributes. For example, 25 to 40 have a gap of 15.
Mark said: I think this needs a little work to balance out the ratings. As it sits it favours Strikers and AMs too much and there are no GKs anywhere to be seen. The weightings have only been developed by position and not across all positions so need adjusting in terms of weight for each position. I would also like to derive the positions not covered.
I will have a play and update it next week. I have a very busy weekend unfortunately. Expand
I'll do my poor man's version too, with only the most important attributes, so it puts more importance on those attributes and gives good cheaper players.
Check "Attributes Importance" in the first post.
It should be interesting to see performance against this data set.
Wow, that's way more than I asked for, but thanls a lot!
Check "Attributes Importance" at the first post pf Blue.
I got really sick (probably flu), so I will only continue when healed, since I'm feeling really bad.
However, this tactic is supposed to overload one side, so it will definitely not be made symmetric. I plan to start changing W-At to W-Su or DW-Su, WB-At to FB-At and maybe Mez-At to SS-At.
Remember to read "Squad Management" in the first post of Blue DM, as well as important attributes. Resting players from training after matches in tight weeks makes all the difference, as well as praising to increase morale.
Any good tactic does work for lower leagues.
I have updated the link.
Rince said: That thread was merged that's why you can't open. Try this - https://fm-arena.com/thread/1831-zaz-blue/
He plays with ZaZ - Blue DM but you can take any top tactic from the table that suites better your team and have a great success in the lower leagues.
Thanks! As long as you have one of the top tactics and a fast team (high pace and acceleration), you will dominate the lower leagues. If I remember well, it only becomes trouble at Sky Bet Championship and Premier League (TV money gap is too big).
I like RPM more than DLP. It participates very well in attacking movements.
Most top tactics have similar player and team instructions, so those attributes can work on any of them. It get's more tricky when a tactic uses very different roles or instructions, like low pace, hold back, ease off tackles, dribble less and so on.
It's inconclusive. In my experiments, they are about the same, with a very small advantage to White, which could very well be the margin of error. In FM-Arena, they are also under the margin of error, as well as most tactics on the top 5 or 10.
(if I understand well it is with Blue -- Wingers S instead of DW(S) -- is it?
Edit: I'm trying to figure out with tactic i'll play next season (playing now with Blue).
No, just plain Blue 3.0 RPM, with DW.
I have just downloaded here from this page to test and defensive line is standard.
JamesFox100 said: first time I have ever achieved invicible season in the EPL is with this tactic, its something I have been trying to achieved for 3 years in FM!
Gratz! I really think there is lots of potential in this tactic, this was just a raw version to see if the concept holds. I have just started testing some improvements on it and I believe it will get better.
Nothing very special happened in the past ten matches. I got 9 days between matches and was able to give vacation to most players before the final of Papa's John Cup, and also got enough time to train preparation for all set pieces.
My wage budget for next season is €1.5M (per year), or triple of current. That means I can finally hire more scouts and buy from other teams, instead of relying only on free transfers. My goal for next season is to be promoted and maybe upgrade my training facilities, since board keep refusing it time and time again.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/1949-fm22-positional-filters-what-are-the-best-attributes-for-each-position/page-2/#comment-11020
I always go for the faster ones. However, my opinion matters very little when we have two tables that tested players attributes, which are definitely a better input than my personal feeling.
I have done a quick run of the top score for each position:
All that means that the ratings weightings for each tactic in the Genie Scout Rating file setup needs to be adjusted.
Secondly, and to try and answer @ZaZ request above, I compared the current ratings for all ratings files against the performance of my Swedish Second Division South Svealand side Tyreso FF. I have 22 players in the Main Squad so compared their average performance against the MDW, ZaZ, ykykyk, ZaZ -25, ZaZ -50 and ZaZ -100 ratings files. I have only used ratings for the position selected.
Here are the results:
Disclaimer: I have used players out of the positions identified in the results, but in the main they have played the positions indicated. In addition I have used 2 main tactics, Dragons Breath that uses an MC instead of AMC, and ZaZ Blue DM, but given the ratings files don't all have MC ratings I just used AMC.
To answer @ZaZ question the ZaZ-100 ended up equal with MDW in picking 8 of the best 11 positional players. It does need balancing to make it more usable though. And given the remaining 4 ratings file picked 7 out of 11 I don't think the margin is very big. All are definitely usable.
Now if we look at average % difference from the best rated team the order is MDW, ykykyk, ZaZ -50, ZaZ -25, ZaZ, ZaZ -100.
Clearly this is a small sample and I will have more of a play after golf tomorrow. But I think if you wanted to use one of the ratings files above, I would go with the ZaZ -50.
Thanks for the thorough analysis, Mark. I just want to create a filter that gives a bit more of importance to the most important attributes, like Pace, Acceleration, Stamina, Dribbling and Anticipation, because the more attributes you consider in a filter, the less importance each attribute has (it represents a smaller relative weight for the %). Doing that, it allows you to find good players for cheaper prince, since cost of players is directly linked to CA and reputation.
Pace, Acceleration, Stamina and Dribbling/Anticipation.
Thank you for your interest in our research results.
It is necessary to make some supplementary explanations to the research results so as not to be misleading.
Stamina, in our system, we keep the players full in every game, and all players play the entire game. In the actual game, for those substitute players who occasionally play, stamina should not be as important as the results indicate. In a dense schedule, the stamina of the key players may be more important than the research results. Of course, it is related to the team's rotation strategy.
Strength and Aggression, in order to simplify the entire training process, we actually discarded the injury game. Higher aggression will make the players more likely to get injured. This negative factor is not included in our experiment. In addition, our research has found that strength has the effect of avoiding serious injuries to a certain extent, so the importance of strength should be higher than that on the table.
Punching, in fact, this attribute shows some negative effects in our research, and the weight in the table should be a negative number. However, due to a bug in our system, there are some problems with the processing of negative attributes, so accurate weight values are not obtained. 0 is manually set.
Thanks for the explanation!
I believe the first point (setting condition to max before matches), should be a goal of any manager with proper rotation and resting after matches. It is achievable during most of the season except a couple of tight weeks, so it's not a big deal and I believe the conclusion about stamina still stands in real gameplay. About the second point (removing injuries), it can somehow be managed with a balanced squad. Removing injuries and setting condition to maximum are ways to simulate the human behaviour of rotating squad, because assistant manager is pretty bad at that.
Anyway, thanks for the hard work on the experiment! It gave us some nice input that will help lots of managers find the best players to overachieve in their games.
Version 1: all ratings minus 25 (removes lower ratings and increases % gap of remaining)
Version 2: all ratings under 50 minuts 25 (removes lower ratings and keeps gap of top)
Version 3: all ratings minus difference to 100 (removes lower ratings and increases absolute gap of remaining)
* Gap means the difference in rating between two attributes. For example, 25 to 40 have a gap of 15.
Anyone else's opinion would also be appreciated!
I will have a play and update it next week. I have a very busy weekend unfortunately.
I'll do my poor man's version too, with only the most important attributes, so it puts more importance on those attributes and gives good cheaper players.