Mark said: And this one seems to be working. It was well above the average of the other 2 best set piece routines. Motion best points total for a single run was 398 with an average of 372. Void best points total for a single run was 392 with an average of 359. My slight modification to Blue 2.1, I have called it Blue 3.0, was 383 (easily leading on averages). Scoring from corners. The best single run from any tactic was Void with 58 for the 5 sides for a single season. Blue 3.0 equaled that. Not much time in the next few days but now running Blue 3.0 with ZaZ Blue 2.0 instead of Pheonix to see how it goes overnight. I have corrected it against the set ups. This one seemed to change marginally.
As I wont be posting tomorrow, here is the tactic if you want to test @ZaZ Expand
I am gonna check and test here, add to my data and show the results. Whatever is better I will add together and see how it goes.
Right now I am trying to release some players from defense in situations of low risk, like throw ins and deep free kicks, to make counter attacking faster and see if it helps.
ta2199 said: Who take the Corners and Throw In ? or just anyone with best atributes ? Expand
I just let the players choose, based on their stats. But probably it should be one of the wingers.
Mark said: Final results just behind Motion, but still thinking that bizarre Leyton result impacted. I shall definitely be using Blue 2.1. I have now tested 13 set piece routines. Blue 2.1 is easily the best scoring from free kicks, second best defending corners, third best defending free kicks, and just below average scoring from corners. I left out a few of the worst tactics. Here is the updated table.
@Mark, can you test this, please, and tell me how it compares to others? You can also modify it if you find some improvement. Set pieces are a frankenstein using routines from fireball, phoenix, motion, void and blue.
P.S.: I am re-running the tests, to make sure I didn't overtrain to the save file I was using.
duxa92 said: Hi all!. Should IWB have the same foot as wingers? They have cut inside instruction. I usually try to teach them to play on opposit flank, and they usually recieve a bit higher ratings when they are inverted, but I don't know about whole tactical impact on the result. Expand
It doesn't make much of a difference. It's important for IF and IW because they cut for a shot. For IWB - Su, they don't cross or shoot much. It's basically a feature to define if they pass better to the center or the flanks of the field, but this formation is strong in both.
ta2199 said: I think It because all the key pass doesnt come from DLP. He only there for filling the hole between midfields and defenders Expand
There are two things that I would test. First is to set DLP pass to shorter in player instructions. Second would be setting it to DM - Su to use the player instruction take less risks. Then I would see if any of this improves the tactic or if they make it worse.
However, I am currently testing some new set pieces. Can you test those two options instead and tell me if any of them is any good, please?
P.S.: There's a possibility that it just can't be improved for this tactic, because of the role it plays. How many times have we seem a real life manager insisting in a player that the supporters hate, but he keeps saying that player is fundamental to the tactic?
ta2199 said: This is with De Jong I've tried change to DM(De) - The goal concede is less but still get bad point. I got 2nd with Fullham, only 1 point behind Liverpool Expand
Gonna watch a couple of matches to see if I spot something. I tried different roles for DM and only DM - Su had similar results to DLP - Su. That doesn't mean there isn't anything better, just that I couldn't spot the improvement. The low grades might just be because it's a transition role, doing short passes instead of key actions. If you check the numbers, it doesn't tackle much, it doesn't dribble, doesn't shoot or do other active actions, but it has a very high number of passes made per match, around double of other players. Maybe it just performs bad against teams with crowded midfield, or with good individual marking on him by some quality player. Anyway, I will watch in matches and see what causes the bad grades, but I have a feeling that it's just missed passes, since that position has the most passes made
ta2199 said: @ZaZ Any ideas to improve DM position ? I even have De Jong played there but still ~6.8 6.9 point Expand
Can you please open the page of your DM, then hover your mouse over reports (at the top) and click form? Then send me a print screen to analyze, please. Knowing what he is doing wrong will help finding a way to improve.
Just added Blue 2.1 to the table, which is how I am calling the version of Blue 2.0 with improved set pieces. I tried to follow the best for each kind of set pieces and the result is shown below.
There is definitely an improvement in attacking corners and defending free kicks (thanks to Motion and Phoenix set pieces). I also modified my throw-in set pieces and managed to get more goals, but no more than one in a whole season. I feel like I can improve the defending corners and attacking free kicks, so I will focus my effort in that for now. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
@Mark, what set pieces worked better for you for attacking free kicks and defending corners?
Raw data for Blue 2.1 is below, in spoiler. Spoiler
Mrcl25 said: Hi, I'm an old time player, I have played every edition from the old days of CM up until FM 2018, and actively participated in forums like the official SI Community and FM-Base. Due to lack of time in real life I skipped the last two versions but got back now in FM 2021. However with less time to play I searched for a really good plug and play tactic and found this. I signed up to this site just to say thank you to ZaZ for creating and sharing this tactic. I'm still in the beggining of my save but results have been far better than expected. I know it's only the state championship, but look at the table:
Expand
Thank you! I suppose Palmeiras is the favorite in the championship, right? Good results there. Remember that the most important attributes for any player are Acceleration and Pace, with Agility and Dribbling right after. You can check those stats in https://fm-arena.com/table/9-player-attributes-importance/. Also, I am optimizing the set pieces for Blue 2.0, so I might release a 2.1 version soon, improved in that area. Have fun!
Done with the tests. My methodology was to adapt the set pieces of Void, Motion and Phoenix to Blue 2.0 and compare with the standard results of my set pieces. Each set piece was run five times in holiday mode with Manchester City and Fulham. Then, I collected the following data in the league: points, goals scored, goals conceded, goals from direct free kicks, goals from corners, goals from indirect free kicks, as well as conceded from the same set pieces. Additionally, I collected data from assists from throw ins from the past 50 matches, both scored and conceded. For the comparison, it was picked the median of each stats, or the 3rd better. The data was organized in two tables, one with relative values (points per match, goals per match, conceded per match and % of goals with each set piece) and another with absolute values. Best of each category is marked in red. Results are presented below.
Ignoring points per match and looking only at the % of goals by each set piece, we have the following best set pieces: - Attacking Direct Free Kicks: Blue 2.0 - Attacking Corners: Motion (contested by Phoenix and Blue 2.0) - Attacking Indirect Free Kicks: Blue 2.0 - Attacking Throw-ins: None - Defensive Direct Free Kicks: Motion - Defensive Corners: Void (contested by Phoenix and Motion) - Defensive Indirect Free Kicks: Phoenix - Defensive Throw-ins: All
I will create some set pieces with the best in each and see how the compare. I have yet to cross my data with @Mark to see where they match and where they don't.
If anyone wants to see the raw data, it's under the spoiler. Spoiler
Madundwa said: Try watching Daljit's youtube videos on defensive set pieces even fmstinger has very good defensive setups which help to counter from those defensive situations. Expand
The defense is not exactly leaky, since the tactic is pretty solid and takes very few goals in a season. However, Blue 2.0 concedes around 20% of goals from opponent set pieces. I want to lower this to at most 10%, if possible. With Manchester City, for example, it scores over 20 goals a season from set pieces and concedes about 5, in holiday mode (scoring around 110 goals and conceding around 25). Reducing 2 or 3 goals conceded in a season can translate in one or two extra victories.
P.S.: @Mark, it depends on the moment of the season. Usually I have 4 teams saved, one with team A, another with team B, and two versions mixed with similar power (A1 and A2). Usually I switch between A1 and A2, but if I have FA Cup or some decisive match in the league, I plan to play with team A, using team B in the match before.
P.S.2: My 6 reserves are not used by any of those teams. They enter when needed during matches and play for reserve team when low sharpness, even if I need to make a friendly for the reserves. They are a GK, a DC, a DL training for ML (or vice-versa), a DR training for MR (or vice-versa), a MC training for DM (or vice-versa) and a SS. That makes two teams of 11 that alternates between matches and half team of third reserves that can get some playtime during matches. Also, if one player is way better than the rest, like a Messi or something like it, I let it play in both teams, using the second reserve only once every four or five matches to rest him.
I am finishing the tests with Void, then I will start Motion. I will post the full data and save files later for anyone that wants to investigate further.
Gonna have to re-run the experiments. I was watching a couple of matches and noticed players are pretty stupid with play for set pieces. I mean, they receive a foul, then instead of trying to make the goal, they pass the ball back and try to get new fouls. Just too dumb.
Mark said: I somehow ended up with too many left wingers. The young one I had came good and was faster than the ones I had signed. So the older ones not playing are upsetting the squad and are unhappy. Cant seem to get rid of them. I will use the tip as I am just about to start looking for players for next season. I have $260k, but am just under the wage budget and have just $20k transfer budget. Really hard managing the workload of the players in the middle of the season. Mainly all young players
Smashed by Burton (L1) in round 1 of FA Cup and just about to play our first FA Trophy game. Expand
I currently have 28 players in my team. Two for each position, plus one goalkeeper, one defender, striker, midfielder (training as DM) and one winger in each side (training as DL/R). Basically, I rotate two teams of 22 players equally (one match each) and use the other 5 as reserves for both teams, so everyone gets play time. The third goalkeeper plays on Trophy Cup, no matter the team.
In the middle of the season, I usually lower everyone's agrees play time to minimum, then try to increase until they drop their worry. That makes them expect as least playtime as possible.
P.S.: I also took some time to get rid of players other than those 28. I managed to sell some, loan some, but one stayed and didn't want to leave, so I just terminated his contract paying the full salary. I will show my team later, but now there are some experiments running. I am using only one player from the youth category, one reserve striker. I also hired more scouts, so I know my players even without a scouting package, and convinced the board to add two more coaches.
Mark said: I didn't think about setting to play for set pieces, great idea. I might progress my current save with Blue 2.0 and Motion and keep an eye out for your results. I am in my second season with St Albans and won the South comp last year and now leading the Vanarama National League in early December. Very tight at the top though. Finances aren't great, no likelihood of turning pro and cant attract decent players or staff. Going to need every advantage I can get from Blue and set pieces just to stay up if I get through to League 2 Expand
I am still going on with Leamington. Won Vanarama North and the Trophy in first year, and now I am leading Vanarama National, but got kicked out of the Trophy already. Finances are great since I got lots of money from FA Cup against Manchester United. I lost, but got 1.5m from gate receipts. Now I have over 2m in projected balance and I am upgrading training and youth facilities. However, the board asked me to become stabilished before becoming professional. We can afford it, but the president is not ambitious enough.
P.S.: As a tip, always remove all clauses and bonuses when renewing contracts. You can pay less in a year if you remove those bonus for picked or unused sub. Some clauses and bonus allow to pay less in the long run, but I just remove everything anyway.
Mark said: @ZaZ I tried two hybrid versions of set pieces and neither advanced the Motion or Void set pieces. So I think I am now down to just testing those 2 and the Phoenix one in ZaZ Blue 2. Might also try the two hybrids as well - MDW above and another.
The hybrids seem to be working ok in my save game though Expand
I just started collecting data. I set Blue with Play For Set Pieces and will do five runs of each set piece, collecting data like points, goals scored, goals conceded, assists from corners, free kicks and throw ins, goals from free kicks and goals conceded from the same things. Then I will pick the median (3rd best) from each stat to decide the best. This will give me a base setup for the set pieces, which I will then try to improve with experiments, trying to understand why it works well.
Mark said: My squad has very much higher ratings for roles for those positions. But you are probably right.
I am not sure whether there is that much certainty in this stuff. The tests seem to be quite variable. I will see how it plays in my save using the modified version and then test later in the week. Was just a bit of fun looking at it all and then comparing the ones that seemed better against the ones that appeared not to be good. Didnt pay much attention to the ones in the middle. Expand
I guess it's pretty clear that my set pieces are far from the best and can be improved. I will run some experiments with those three top set pieces (and mine) and see what I can copy from each type of set piece. Then I will see if I can improve it even further.
About the roles, I wouldn't care much about the assistant opinion. I actually doubt the number of stars make any difference at all. I think the only things that matter are tactical affinity and position proficiency.
As I wont be posting tomorrow, here is the tactic if you want to test @ZaZ
I am gonna check and test here, add to my data and show the results. Whatever is better I will add together and see how it goes.
Right now I am trying to release some players from defense in situations of low risk, like throw ins and deep free kicks, to make counter attacking faster and see if it helps.
I just let the players choose, based on their stats. But probably it should be one of the wingers.
Mark said: Final results just behind Motion, but still thinking that bizarre Leyton result impacted. I shall definitely be using Blue 2.1. I have now tested 13 set piece routines. Blue 2.1 is easily the best scoring from free kicks, second best defending corners, third best defending free kicks, and just below average scoring from corners. I left out a few of the worst tactics. Here is the updated table.
Thanks for all your work @ZaZ.
At least it is an improvement over 2.0. I will keep playing around to see if I can improve further. Thanks for testing.
It will be more precise if you run on phoenix, like the others, but also extra work if one or other position is off.
P.S.: I am re-running the tests, to make sure I didn't overtrain to the save file I was using.
Then it's just that, the transition position that doesn't shine, but makes everyone work well.
It doesn't make much of a difference. It's important for IF and IW because they cut for a shot. For IWB - Su, they don't cross or shoot much. It's basically a feature to define if they pass better to the center or the flanks of the field, but this formation is strong in both.
There are two things that I would test. First is to set DLP pass to shorter in player instructions. Second would be setting it to DM - Su to use the player instruction take less risks. Then I would see if any of this improves the tactic or if they make it worse.
However, I am currently testing some new set pieces. Can you test those two options instead and tell me if any of them is any good, please?
P.S.: There's a possibility that it just can't be improved for this tactic, because of the role it plays. How many times have we seem a real life manager insisting in a player that the supporters hate, but he keeps saying that player is fundamental to the tactic?
I've tried change to DM(De) - The goal concede is less but still get bad point.
I got 2nd with Fullham, only 1 point behind Liverpool
Gonna watch a couple of matches to see if I spot something. I tried different roles for DM and only DM - Su had similar results to DLP - Su. That doesn't mean there isn't anything better, just that I couldn't spot the improvement. The low grades might just be because it's a transition role, doing short passes instead of key actions. If you check the numbers, it doesn't tackle much, it doesn't dribble, doesn't shoot or do other active actions, but it has a very high number of passes made per match, around double of other players. Maybe it just performs bad against teams with crowded midfield, or with good individual marking on him by some quality player. Anyway, I will watch in matches and see what causes the bad grades, but I have a feeling that it's just missed passes, since that position has the most passes made
Any ideas to improve DM position ? I even have De Jong played there but still ~6.8 6.9 point
Can you please open the page of your DM, then hover your mouse over reports (at the top) and click form? Then send me a print screen to analyze, please. Knowing what he is doing wrong will help finding a way to improve.
Great work mate
Running your suggestions now.
There is definitely an improvement in attacking corners and defending free kicks (thanks to Motion and Phoenix set pieces). I also modified my throw-in set pieces and managed to get more goals, but no more than one in a whole season. I feel like I can improve the defending corners and attacking free kicks, so I will focus my effort in that for now. Let me know if you have any suggestions.
@Mark, what set pieces worked better for you for attacking free kicks and defending corners?
Raw data for Blue 2.1 is below, in spoiler.
Spoiler
Thank you! I suppose Palmeiras is the favorite in the championship, right? Good results there. Remember that the most important attributes for any player are Acceleration and Pace, with Agility and Dribbling right after. You can check those stats in https://fm-arena.com/table/9-player-attributes-importance/. Also, I am optimizing the set pieces for Blue 2.0, so I might release a 2.1 version soon, improved in that area. Have fun!
Ignoring points per match and looking only at the % of goals by each set piece, we have the following best set pieces:
- Attacking Direct Free Kicks: Blue 2.0
- Attacking Corners: Motion (contested by Phoenix and Blue 2.0)
- Attacking Indirect Free Kicks: Blue 2.0
- Attacking Throw-ins: None
- Defensive Direct Free Kicks: Motion
- Defensive Corners: Void (contested by Phoenix and Motion)
- Defensive Indirect Free Kicks: Phoenix
- Defensive Throw-ins: All
I will create some set pieces with the best in each and see how the compare. I have yet to cross my data with @Mark to see where they match and where they don't.
If anyone wants to see the raw data, it's under the spoiler.
Spoiler
The defense is not exactly leaky, since the tactic is pretty solid and takes very few goals in a season. However, Blue 2.0 concedes around 20% of goals from opponent set pieces. I want to lower this to at most 10%, if possible. With Manchester City, for example, it scores over 20 goals a season from set pieces and concedes about 5, in holiday mode (scoring around 110 goals and conceding around 25). Reducing 2 or 3 goals conceded in a season can translate in one or two extra victories.
P.S.: @Mark, it depends on the moment of the season. Usually I have 4 teams saved, one with team A, another with team B, and two versions mixed with similar power (A1 and A2). Usually I switch between A1 and A2, but if I have FA Cup or some decisive match in the league, I plan to play with team A, using team B in the match before.
P.S.2: My 6 reserves are not used by any of those teams. They enter when needed during matches and play for reserve team when low sharpness, even if I need to make a friendly for the reserves. They are a GK, a DC, a DL training for ML (or vice-versa), a DR training for MR (or vice-versa), a MC training for DM (or vice-versa) and a SS. That makes two teams of 11 that alternates between matches and half team of third reserves that can get some playtime during matches. Also, if one player is way better than the rest, like a Messi or something like it, I let it play in both teams, using the second reserve only once every four or five matches to rest him.
Smashed by Burton (L1) in round 1 of FA Cup and just about to play our first FA Trophy game.
I currently have 28 players in my team. Two for each position, plus one goalkeeper, one defender, striker, midfielder (training as DM) and one winger in each side (training as DL/R). Basically, I rotate two teams of 22 players equally (one match each) and use the other 5 as reserves for both teams, so everyone gets play time. The third goalkeeper plays on Trophy Cup, no matter the team.
In the middle of the season, I usually lower everyone's agrees play time to minimum, then try to increase until they drop their worry. That makes them expect as least playtime as possible.
P.S.: I also took some time to get rid of players other than those 28. I managed to sell some, loan some, but one stayed and didn't want to leave, so I just terminated his contract paying the full salary. I will show my team later, but now there are some experiments running. I am using only one player from the youth category, one reserve striker. I also hired more scouts, so I know my players even without a scouting package, and convinced the board to add two more coaches.
P.S.2: My defensive set pieces suck so bad...
I am still going on with Leamington. Won Vanarama North and the Trophy in first year, and now I am leading Vanarama National, but got kicked out of the Trophy already. Finances are great since I got lots of money from FA Cup against Manchester United. I lost, but got 1.5m from gate receipts. Now I have over 2m in projected balance and I am upgrading training and youth facilities. However, the board asked me to become stabilished before becoming professional. We can afford it, but the president is not ambitious enough.
P.S.: As a tip, always remove all clauses and bonuses when renewing contracts. You can pay less in a year if you remove those bonus for picked or unused sub. Some clauses and bonus allow to pay less in the long run, but I just remove everything anyway.
The hybrids seem to be working ok in my save game though
I just started collecting data. I set Blue with Play For Set Pieces and will do five runs of each set piece, collecting data like points, goals scored, goals conceded, assists from corners, free kicks and throw ins, goals from free kicks and goals conceded from the same things. Then I will pick the median (3rd best) from each stat to decide the best. This will give me a base setup for the set pieces, which I will then try to improve with experiments, trying to understand why it works well.
I am not sure whether there is that much certainty in this stuff. The tests seem to be quite variable. I will see how it plays in my save using the modified version and then test later in the week. Was just a bit of fun looking at it all and then comparing the ones that seemed better against the ones that appeared not to be good. Didnt pay much attention to the ones in the middle.
I guess it's pretty clear that my set pieces are far from the best and can be improved. I will run some experiments with those three top set pieces (and mine) and see what I can copy from each type of set piece. Then I will see if I can improve it even further.
About the roles, I wouldn't care much about the assistant opinion. I actually doubt the number of stars make any difference at all. I think the only things that matter are tactical affinity and position proficiency.