Xavinwonderland said: I have been searching the forums for a clear answer on this but couldn't not find anything clear.
When a player gains attribute points the CA cost will depend on its position so increasing tackling for instance will be very expensive for a defender but pretty much free for a striker.
What happens if I have a striker that I retrain as a defender? Is the cost increase based on being a striker? A defender? An average of the 2?
Is it possible to min/max by keeping it natural as a striker and only accomplished as a defender so that the tackling cost is using the striker weight rather than the defender weights? Expand
It's possible, but highly unlikely to produce anything good in a reasonable time. The initial attributes are just too different. Maybe it would take 4 or 5 years for a striker to reach the attributes of a teenager defender, which isn't very impressive at all. Also, DC is one of the positions with the lowest costs for pace, acceleration and agility, which are the most effective attributes overall.
Xavinwonderland said: Bonus question what is the exact trigger? (I have read that it could be position familiarity that would decide if the game considers you to be a striker or a defender) but if the player only trains as a defender but rarely plays it will take ages to achieve familiarity as a defender (which would be good as we could load up more cheap attributes points onto him) Expand
I believe the natural position is decided at generation time, so you can't change it even if he only plays in another position. The natural position is the one that never lowers (always 20) when you stop training, while the other positions can decrease if you stop playing/training.
Here's a look at my club ~40 games into the season. I'm in 2033 in Ligue 1 with RC Lens.
I took the metrics from FM Stag I believe. The attacking metric is: (key passes / 90) + (chances created / 90) + (assists / 90) + (shots on target / 90) + (goals / 90) + (xG / 90) + (xG / shot)
the defensive metric is: (interceptions / 90) + (tackles / 90) + (headers won / 90) / 2
positions of the players: Abbate - DL/DR Balde - AMC Balikwisha - MC Benjelloun - AMC/ML/MR Correa - DC Cristiano - AMC/ML Cuzcueta - ML Damilola - MR/AMC Emeljanov - MR Gamba - MC/AMC Jesus - ML Jimenez - DL/DR Juan - DM Kozuchowski - DM/MC Lambert - DL Mashigo - DR/DL Demirel - DC Navio - DC Nina - DC Salvatori - DL Vandenbroeck - AMC Vera - MR Vranckx - DM
The red lines are the team average in the attacking/defensive metrics. Players in the upper right are above average in both attacking and defensive metrics. They're nearly all primarily ML/MR players. Also, I move around set pieces every match, and the ML/MR are not always my corner takers.
Players in the upper left are above average attacking and below average defending. They're usually the AMC/MC positions.
The lower left are below average defending and attacking. In this case it's my DM's and GK's (who should really be left off the plot but I'm too lazy to filter them out).
The lower right are above average defending and below average attacking. These are mostly the back 4.
I've been making this plot for a few seasons with the red version of this shape, and the distribution of players shown here is pretty universally what I've seen.
There's nothing all that surprising about where the positions end up but I use this type of thing to compare players against each other, i.e. Vandenbroeck is a world class player making $10 million/yr, whereas Damilola is 17 years old making $1 million / yr, and they're practically performing the same. Vandenbroeck plays tougher matches of course but he's really not playing as well as I think he should. Expand
Thanks for the graph, it is very nice. Too bad such thing is not part of the game itself. Some people were commenting here that wingers don't perform well, but I guess this data clearly shows the opposite.
drhay53 said: I make a lot of plots and stuff from the player stats, and from a sheer numbers perspective, the defensive wingers do the most work for me (caveat, I'm using red instead of blue). This is in terms of things like int/90, tkl/90, key passes/90, chances created/90, etc. The wingers stand way out in terms of their overall production in those kinds of stats. They just do a ton of work in both phases of play.
That said, pace at AMC/MC is very important. If I had a player who was my best winger but also my fastest player, I'd play him at AMC/CM first. Expand
I have some stats of Blue 3.0 after one season in vacation mode. Columns are, in order: passes completed, pass attempts, mistakes leading to goals, distance covered per 90 minutes, dribbles made per game, pass attempts per 90 minutes, key passes per 90 minutes, chances created per 90 minutes, shots per 90 minutes, shots on target ratio, interceptions per 90 minutes, tackles per game, tackle completion ratio, aerial challenge attempts per 90 minutes, cross completed compared to crosses attempted, overall number of crosses attempted.
bula1899 said: @ZaZ what do you think, which position is the most important/key positions for tactic? i have many players who can play all positions from attack, ok im sure that CM is very important but i dont know, my best player has better left foot and natural on ML and AMC, where he should play? Expand
It depends on your squad. If you have enough good players in one position, put him in the other. If both positions are well supplied, then switch the worst player off. If you don't have any good player in either position, then play him as ML, because it's easier to find a good AMC than a good ML.
pauloolivieri said: That was the tactic I was trying to achieve. I was tired of the unbalanced 4-3-3 options with players occupying the same space, specially in the wings. And even more tired of lone strikers being useless and lost amongst the opposition defenders (they only work properly for me if there's an AMC behind).
So far, I've managed to achieve some success with two @RDFTactics tactics (Bielsa's with Milan and Sacchi's with Arsenal), but that wasn't enough. I've tried some approaches based on the Strikerless guy ideas, but they didn't work. Then I tested this one in an unsuccessful save with Sampdoria and things just happened. I was going 4-3-3 and made my signings based on it, so I still don't have the players I need for the season. But it's working. I'm using mostly the Light Blue, playing more defensively, and got impressive results against Juventus (3-3 away, they scored from an IMPOSSIBLE free kick at 90+3), Milan 2-1, Roma 3-0, Lazio 3-0. I'm currently in 7th (had a bad start), but possibly will manage to get at least a place for Europa League.
The interchangeable movement of the players is great. Wingbacks switching from going inside/outside, the CM-at making late forward runs makes him my most dangerous player (now who's FMing here, huh). I have Onyeka (originally intended to be a B2B) and Jankto playing there. Onyeka is super fast, but lacks finishing. Still doing fine. Damsgaard and Gabbiadini are doing good as well as the SS.
As my SSs play near the midfield, I often ask them to man-mark the opposition CMs when playing a stronger side. And my wingers to mark their wing/fullbacks. This kills their chance creation possibilities. Also I removed the long throw-ins since it was causing more counters for the opposition than any good to my squad. I will need a player to suit the CM-at next season. Otávio from Porto was my main target, but he's not willing to join Samp now. He's quite a great player, I buy him every save. So I will need this Lothar Matthaus kind of guy, as it seems to be my main role.
Will come back for updates. Expand
Nice job there! I would just recommend Blue 3.0 with cautious mentality instead of Light Blue 3.0. Light version sacrifices win-rate to get less yellow cards and save some energy, it's supposed to be used when you want to hit the brakes thinking about future matches.
pgsonline said: Firstly, congratulations on the tactic. It clearly is working so well for others and the results I see are amazing.
I'm having some mixed results with it to be honest. I will add that I'm in the Croatian league with no money - so no Messi or Salah for me!. So I'm aware nothing will come easy for my team. I do consistently win the league now, but have hit a brick wall and no matter what better quality players I bring in, I cannot make that jump into being a European contender.
Even with a reasonable squad, I'm not dominating games in my league. Winning yes, but despite shouts and team talks and rotation, the games are quite laboured. The real frustration I'm having is with the wide players - and to be fair. this tactic is not alone in this. Not matter how quick, or good at dribbling, they seem hell bent in running into dead ends. True, they win corner after corner, but very rarely do they deliver anything in the game. I've tried removing 'cross from byline' but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Is this something in FM21? I last played on FM19 and wingers seemed much more effective there, easily getting double figures in goals and assists. Is anyone else having this frustration? When the highlight goes to the flank, I know there is a 90% chance nothing will happen apart from getting a corner. I should add, this isn't a complaint and I can see from the thread what a good tactic this is. It just seems to be missing a 'spark' and I wonder if it is the wing play that makes me most frustrated. I'm thinking about ditching my wingers for good!
Any tips? Expand
I can't say much about why you are not able to challenge the european title, as it can be several reasons. Is your team fast, like everyone with pace and acceleration at least 14+?
About the wingers, it's like real life. Most of the times they don't manage to do anything. We just got spoiled to live in an era with Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar and so many amazing forwards, but other than those very skilled players, most attacks usually get neutralized. With Blue you will get 20 or 30 good attacking opportunities in a match, but in real life, it's very common to end matches with less than 10.
Machismo said: BLUE's default is set to POSITIVE where as RED is set to ATTACKING. I recall for BLUE you were sure POSITIVE was the most effective overall. So for RED (in this particular case BURNLEY) leave the default as ATTACKING or change to POSITIVE mentality? Expand
Red takes less risks than Blue, so the attacking mentality is used to balance it and keep the offensive power. The mentality should fit the tactic, there isn't a best mentality overall. Void, for example, works better on very attacking than positive.
yaozy said: Could you possibly test the exact same tactic but instead of SS, use normal strikers? Would be interesting to see how it performs in a more conventional 442, I don't really enjoy putting my strikers in the SS postion. Expand
You can change SS to AF in any tactic. It will decrease the performance in 0.4 to 0.8 points, but probably still over 6.0.
Right now, I guess I'm done testing tactics for FM21. Next version comes in two or three months.
wixta79 said: what sort of player is better in the SS role? ive tried converted strikers, or is it better to use AMC's? Expand
As long as the player is at least accomplished in the position, use the fastest you have. If you want to retrain someone, the best in my opinion are MC, because they have lower weights to speed attributes which allow them to get higher attributes overall. DM are also good for this purpose. However, that only makes a difference when they reach maximum potential, so don't worry much about it.
Mark said: From memory the match engine was 21.7 but the game version is 21.4. Could be wrong. Either way this is still good under the current game which wont change now until the FM22 game Expand
Just checked and you are right! I didn't think about it since it only changes with the patches, so people usually talk about patch number instead of match engine number.
Green is a variation of Blue using two RPMs in the central midfield. The idea is that the IWB will advance to DM position in possesion, leaving only two defenders in the back and creating superiority in numbers. Since I use two RPMs with Move Into Channels, I expect one to move forward while the other holds position to cover. It's basically the opposite of Black, where the IWBs moved in front of the RPMs. Tactic and results are below.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
Black is a variation of Blue using two DMs. Since one CM was pulled down, I push both IWB forward so they can ocupy the center of the field when in possession. this formation was not tested yet, so I decided to see how it performs here. Tactic and results are below.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
dakiri said: Yes, this tactic is probably my favorite of the top options on the table right now. I've played quite a bit with Zaz Blue, Void, and my own Cyclops tactics, and dabbled with some of the others like Phoenix. Anything in the high 6s or 7s is going to be really successful, and it's hard with the eye test alone to see what's best. But 1 thing that most of the top tactics have in common is that the goals "mostly" come from players in the middle of the pitch, and wide players are mostly there for supporting play.
Afterlife plays very differently, with the two WMs contributing nearly as many goals as the Shadow Strikers up top. It just feels really different and varied when compared to other top choices. My own complaint is the "very narrow" instruction, which sometimes leads to 6 players all crammed into a small space and a lot of blocked shots...but I think it's definitely better than the alternative here, and if the players are creative and smart enough it can lead to some really attractive quick passes/combinations. It's a really fun tactic to watch. Expand
In my opinion, the best part of this tactic is to have two DMs instead of one DM and one CM, meaning you have an easier time building a balanced squad.
ta2199 said: But does hidden attributes affect alots ? I usually buy players with 12+ consistent. Love to see fm-arena test those attributes Expand
If I remember correctly, consistency is a very straight forward attribute. If you have 12 consistency, your player uses maximum attribute in 12 of 25 matches, while if you have 20, it uses in 20 of 25. I don't know how much is reduced, but I heard that's how it works.
I just want to point out that the dude created some monsters with maximum height and weight, as well as maximum speed. Imagine if Messi was 2.12m tall and strong like Cristiano Ronaldo, but with the same ability to dribble and move around. =)
It would be nice if they could test the impact of Height and maybe Weight to add to the table.
wixta79 said: great tactic, using the training schedule, i keep getting players moan about no attacking technical, any fix? Expand
My fix is to ignore it. I don't think players complaints about training have any impact in the game, it's just a mechanic to add unhapiness and make it harder to manage the squad. However, other factors of happiness are enough to make players delighted, which allow you to simply ignore those complaints.
When a player gains attribute points the CA cost will depend on its position so increasing tackling for instance will be very expensive for a defender but pretty much free for a striker.
What happens if I have a striker that I retrain as a defender? Is the cost increase based on being a striker? A defender? An average of the 2?
Is it possible to min/max by keeping it natural as a striker and only accomplished as a defender so that the tackling cost is using the striker weight rather than the defender weights?
It's possible, but highly unlikely to produce anything good in a reasonable time. The initial attributes are just too different. Maybe it would take 4 or 5 years for a striker to reach the attributes of a teenager defender, which isn't very impressive at all. Also, DC is one of the positions with the lowest costs for pace, acceleration and agility, which are the most effective attributes overall.
Xavinwonderland said: Bonus question what is the exact trigger? (I have read that it could be position familiarity that would decide if the game considers you to be a striker or a defender) but if the player only trains as a defender but rarely plays it will take ages to achieve familiarity as a defender (which would be good as we could load up more cheap attributes points onto him)
I believe the natural position is decided at generation time, so you can't change it even if he only plays in another position. The natural position is the one that never lowers (always 20) when you stop training, while the other positions can decrease if you stop playing/training.
Here's a look at my club ~40 games into the season. I'm in 2033 in Ligue 1 with RC Lens.
I took the metrics from FM Stag I believe.
The attacking metric is:
(key passes / 90) + (chances created / 90) + (assists / 90) + (shots on target / 90) + (goals / 90) + (xG / 90) + (xG / shot)
the defensive metric is:
(interceptions / 90) + (tackles / 90) + (headers won / 90) / 2
positions of the players:
Abbate - DL/DR
Balde - AMC
Balikwisha - MC
Benjelloun - AMC/ML/MR
Correa - DC
Cristiano - AMC/ML
Cuzcueta - ML
Damilola - MR/AMC
Emeljanov - MR
Gamba - MC/AMC
Jesus - ML
Jimenez - DL/DR
Juan - DM
Kozuchowski - DM/MC
Lambert - DL
Mashigo - DR/DL
Demirel - DC
Navio - DC
Nina - DC
Salvatori - DL
Vandenbroeck - AMC
Vera - MR
Vranckx - DM
The red lines are the team average in the attacking/defensive metrics. Players in the upper right are above average in both attacking and defensive metrics. They're nearly all primarily ML/MR players. Also, I move around set pieces every match, and the ML/MR are not always my corner takers.
Players in the upper left are above average attacking and below average defending. They're usually the AMC/MC positions.
The lower left are below average defending and attacking. In this case it's my DM's and GK's (who should really be left off the plot but I'm too lazy to filter them out).
The lower right are above average defending and below average attacking. These are mostly the back 4.
I've been making this plot for a few seasons with the red version of this shape, and the distribution of players shown here is pretty universally what I've seen.
There's nothing all that surprising about where the positions end up but I use this type of thing to compare players against each other, i.e. Vandenbroeck is a world class player making $10 million/yr, whereas Damilola is 17 years old making $1 million / yr, and they're practically performing the same. Vandenbroeck plays tougher matches of course but he's really not playing as well as I think he should.
Thanks for the graph, it is very nice. Too bad such thing is not part of the game itself. Some people were commenting here that wingers don't perform well, but I guess this data clearly shows the opposite.
That said, pace at AMC/MC is very important. If I had a player who was my best winger but also my fastest player, I'd play him at AMC/CM first.
I have some stats of Blue 3.0 after one season in vacation mode. Columns are, in order:
passes completed, pass attempts, mistakes leading to goals, distance covered per 90 minutes, dribbles made per game, pass attempts per 90 minutes, key passes per 90 minutes, chances created per 90 minutes, shots per 90 minutes, shots on target ratio, interceptions per 90 minutes, tackles per game, tackle completion ratio, aerial challenge attempts per 90 minutes, cross completed compared to crosses attempted, overall number of crosses attempted.
i have many players who can play all positions from attack, ok im sure that CM is very important but i dont know, my best player has better left foot and natural on ML and AMC, where he should play?
It depends on your squad. If you have enough good players in one position, put him in the other. If both positions are well supplied, then switch the worst player off. If you don't have any good player in either position, then play him as ML, because it's easier to find a good AMC than a good ML.
What do I have to tick or untick to get my voice back?
It only counts official matches, not friendlies.
So far, I've managed to achieve some success with two @RDFTactics tactics (Bielsa's with Milan and Sacchi's with Arsenal), but that wasn't enough. I've tried some approaches based on the Strikerless guy ideas, but they didn't work. Then I tested this one in an unsuccessful save with Sampdoria and things just happened. I was going 4-3-3 and made my signings based on it, so I still don't have the players I need for the season. But it's working. I'm using mostly the Light Blue, playing more defensively, and got impressive results against Juventus (3-3 away, they scored from an IMPOSSIBLE free kick at 90+3), Milan 2-1, Roma 3-0, Lazio 3-0. I'm currently in 7th (had a bad start), but possibly will manage to get at least a place for Europa League.
The interchangeable movement of the players is great. Wingbacks switching from going inside/outside, the CM-at making late forward runs makes him my most dangerous player (now who's FMing here, huh). I have Onyeka (originally intended to be a B2B) and Jankto playing there. Onyeka is super fast, but lacks finishing. Still doing fine. Damsgaard and Gabbiadini are doing good as well as the SS.
As my SSs play near the midfield, I often ask them to man-mark the opposition CMs when playing a stronger side. And my wingers to mark their wing/fullbacks. This kills their chance creation possibilities. Also I removed the long throw-ins since it was causing more counters for the opposition than any good to my squad. I will need a player to suit the CM-at next season. Otávio from Porto was my main target, but he's not willing to join Samp now. He's quite a great player, I buy him every save. So I will need this Lothar Matthaus kind of guy, as it seems to be my main role.
Will come back for updates.
Nice job there! I would just recommend Blue 3.0 with cautious mentality instead of Light Blue 3.0. Light version sacrifices win-rate to get less yellow cards and save some energy, it's supposed to be used when you want to hit the brakes thinking about future matches.
I'm having some mixed results with it to be honest. I will add that I'm in the Croatian league with no money - so no Messi or Salah for me!. So I'm aware nothing will come easy for my team. I do consistently win the league now, but have hit a brick wall and no matter what better quality players I bring in, I cannot make that jump into being a European contender.
Even with a reasonable squad, I'm not dominating games in my league. Winning yes, but despite shouts and team talks and rotation, the games are quite laboured. The real frustration I'm having is with the wide players - and to be fair. this tactic is not alone in this. Not matter how quick, or good at dribbling, they seem hell bent in running into dead ends. True, they win corner after corner, but very rarely do they deliver anything in the game. I've tried removing 'cross from byline' but it doesn't seem to make a difference. Is this something in FM21? I last played on FM19 and wingers seemed much more effective there, easily getting double figures in goals and assists. Is anyone else having this frustration? When the highlight goes to the flank, I know there is a 90% chance nothing will happen apart from getting a corner. I should add, this isn't a complaint and I can see from the thread what a good tactic this is. It just seems to be missing a 'spark' and I wonder if it is the wing play that makes me most frustrated. I'm thinking about ditching my wingers for good!
Any tips?
I can't say much about why you are not able to challenge the european title, as it can be several reasons. Is your team fast, like everyone with pace and acceleration at least 14+?
About the wingers, it's like real life. Most of the times they don't manage to do anything. We just got spoiled to live in an era with Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Neymar and so many amazing forwards, but other than those very skilled players, most attacks usually get neutralized. With Blue you will get 20 or 30 good attacking opportunities in a match, but in real life, it's very common to end matches with less than 10.
Red takes less risks than Blue, so the attacking mentality is used to balance it and keep the offensive power. The mentality should fit the tactic, there isn't a best mentality overall. Void, for example, works better on very attacking than positive.
You can change SS to AF in any tactic. It will decrease the performance in 0.4 to 0.8 points, but probably still over 6.0.
Right now, I guess I'm done testing tactics for FM21. Next version comes in two or three months.
As long as the player is at least accomplished in the position, use the fastest you have. If you want to retrain someone, the best in my opinion are MC, because they have lower weights to speed attributes which allow them to get higher attributes overall. DM are also good for this purpose. However, that only makes a difference when they reach maximum potential, so don't worry much about it.
Just checked and you are right! I didn't think about it since it only changes with the patches, so people usually talk about patch number instead of match engine number.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
There is no such thing as 21.7, at least in the original edition. This tactic works well in 21.4, the current patch from fm.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/1379-where-can-i-find-more-information-on-the-9-important-attributes/
https://fm-arena.com/thread/938-the-most-important-player-attributes-in-fm21/
https://fm-arena.com/thread/1382-general-consensus-on-most-important-attributes-for-each-position/
I think they did that in one of those topics.
PSG is the new Liverpool.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
Afterlife plays very differently, with the two WMs contributing nearly as many goals as the Shadow Strikers up top. It just feels really different and varied when compared to other top choices. My own complaint is the "very narrow" instruction, which sometimes leads to 6 players all crammed into a small space and a lot of blocked shots...but I think it's definitely better than the alternative here, and if the players are creative and smart enough it can lead to some really attractive quick passes/combinations. It's a really fun tactic to watch.
In my opinion, the best part of this tactic is to have two DMs instead of one DM and one CM, meaning you have an easier time building a balanced squad.
If I remember correctly, consistency is a very straight forward attribute. If you have 12 consistency, your player uses maximum attribute in 12 of 25 matches, while if you have 20, it uses in 20 of 25. I don't know how much is reduced, but I heard that's how it works.
It would be nice if they could test the impact of Height and maybe Weight to add to the table.
My fix is to ignore it. I don't think players complaints about training have any impact in the game, it's just a mechanic to add unhapiness and make it harder to manage the squad. However, other factors of happiness are enough to make players delighted, which allow you to simply ignore those complaints.