Middleweight165 said: Yeah I guessed that, how do do test the impact of throw-ins then? Eye test? Just interested to know how i can test if adding different throw ins like @Nebuuuu has a positive effect Expand
Make a save file at the start of the game with one or two teams. Set the conditions you want to test and run the entire season, then take note of points, goals scored and goals conceded. Reload, set up again and re-run until you have five results. Discard the two best scores and the two worst scores (sorted by points), and you will have your median, meaning you expect half of any other tests to be above this threshold and half to be below. This is how good your tactic is. Now do the same to the second variant, with a different throw-in setting, and compare the medians. The one with best points per match is probably better.
To have higher confidence in your result, you can either isolate variables, like freezing attribute growth, removing injuries and setting some stuff to maximum (like morale, condition and tactical familiarity), or you can increase the number of runs (always discarding the best and worst to pick the middle one), or you can increase the number of matches in a season.
If you want even more confidence, then instead of median you can make plot boxes, or do a rank test like mann-whitney, but that would probably be too much for just a game.
I usually do the first option, five tests on vacation mode then compare the medians.
P.S.: The point of discarding best and worst scores instead of using the average value of all runs is to avoid outliers, which are runs that didn't reflect what you really want to test. For example, a season full of injuries, or a season where the team played too well and all opponents too badly because of RNG. Those outliers can cause distortions, so they should be handled somehow before drawing conclusions.
Middleweight165 said: Is there anyway to see how many goals I've scored from throw-ins? Expand
Team Report -> Analyst Report -> Scoring -> Assists.
However, you shouldn't look at throw-ins only by assists. In my setup, it usually gives no assists at all, but put players in position to make key passes. Unfortunately, you can't check the stats for pre-assists.
Ok, I did an experiment with the following setup: - Run a whole season in vacation mode with Manchester City and Fulham, using the same tactic, 5 times, and store the results. - Repeat the experiment in the same save file, reducing the height of all players by 5 cm (or 2 inches, for those that still use that primitive measurement unit). - Compare the medians of points and goal difference.
Results were inconclusive. For Fulham, there was no noticiable difference, with exactly the same points per match and goal difference. For Manchester City, short players did worse, with a median 6 points below normal height players. However, the best run of both sides were similar, with 102 points and 86 goal difference.
Therefore, I believe height doesn't make that much of a difference on performance, and if there is a difference, then taller is better.
That experiment was considering all positions, because it would be hardly noticiable if I changed only for DM.
Chatin said: Amazing. Third Champions League in a row, I won the Premier without losing any game, only 2 draws. I lost the final in the Carabao Cup by penalties and in the 1/4 final in the FA Cup also by penalties against Manchester United but I took my revenge in the Champions League. Expand
Gratz! Very good team management there, I can tell you rotated well by the short squad (23 players) with very few injuries, no fatigue and everyone happy with play time. Good job!
Stan Seymour said: I see. This is a topic that can be discussed. Also this is my experience about the game, it depends somehow, but i can say this clearly, i just prefer more skill than the height and power in that position. Told you, i already have three giant there. I think the 4th one will cause waste and monotony. The purpose of using anchor is already dynamism. After all, it's nice to have different opinions on these details. Expand
I'm not arguing that you want more dynamic player in that position, I'm just not convinced that height has anything to do with that. The only way to know is isolating this variable and checking it's impact in performance, which I am trying to do. Gonna show results later.
I'm not convinced that height has any influence in the game other than aerial reach, which works in combination with jumping reach. I can't say for sure that height can translate to jumping reach (@Zippo would need to test to confirm that), but I believe it does to a certain degree. When attributes got tested, jumping reach was the fourth most important attribute for defense (goals conceded), which makes me believe it's fairly important for defensive roles.
I mean, I understand your point of wanting a cerebral player in that position, and that tall players are often strong instead of technical or cerebral. However, I can't see the correlation between height and those attributes. I'll run some experiments here with height using the in-game editor and see how short x tall players compare.
Stan Seymour said: Anchor: The brain of the team. He must be a player with a good relationship with the ball. All attributes must be at a certain level. He must be cool. He should not be too tall (between 178-183 is ideal) and should not be physically weak. Even if he doesn't get a high rating, this guy does the real work. Expand
I couldn't get why the anchor can't be too tall. Can you elaborate on that, please?
Nebuuuu said: The Squad after the 2nd Season (4-5 talented young players arrives@3rd season). I think there will be more goals for the Strikers etc. the coming season, because they are way better now.
What we won (Bundesliga, German Cup, German Supercup, Champions League)
72 (!) unbeaten matches since Saturday, the 30th January 2021.
League-Table at the end of the season. Could be a little more goals, a little less conceded goals in some matches. But overall an awesome endresult! And yeah...Haaland is a beast.
That`s it. If anyone didn`t tested this tactic, try it. And try my Boost if someone isn`t full convinced. The Morale, like always in FM, is pretty important. And with the Tactic-Talk-Praise 1d before matchday, it helps + Throw-ins from the Phoenix-Tactic. (big shoutout to the Magician!)
That`s from me. I will play a little now, FIFA Club Worldcup is waiting. Expand
You know it's a game when you see Bayern Munich in 6th at local league. Anyway, thanks for testing the tatic and gratz for the results!
P.S.: By the way, FIFA Club Worldcup is just a friendly competition, like UEFA Super Cup or FA Community Shield. I hope they fix it someday giving a more entertaining format, because it would be awesome to see european teams play seriously against the likes of Palmeiras, Flamengo, Boca or River.
kyle4921 said: I've already been doing this every game. Starting to think all of my players just have the worst hidden attributes possible because I see no reason for their performance to be so consistently bad. Watching them play it just seems like they're incredibly uninterested in actually trying to get the ball up the pitch. Did you change any player instructions at all in the lower leagues or just leave as is? Expand
Well, it might be. After every season, I like to renew around 10% to 20% of my squad. At that time, I usually cut players that have good attributes, but didn't perform well for the whole season. Without seeing hidden attributes, you need to guess who has high injury proneness, low consistency, high dirtness and so on. If the player has very good attributes, you can always give him one more season, but if you find someone better to replace him, just let it go.
Anyway, it's hard to guess why teams go into bad spells. There are too many variables other than tactics that affect the game, which is nice or FM would be very boring.
Gpassosbh said: Hello @ZaZ , do you have a plan for FM22 yet? Or you think it's too early? Expand
My plan is to start with three tests: 1. Blue 3.0. 2. Blue 3.0 with AF, in case they are more effective in the next version. Would also try moving CM to SS and see which does better. 3. Blue 3.0 with three defenders, using the new role. The extra defender would move to SS/AF, and I also plan to try with the CM moved to DM.
Those would be my initial tactics. After knowing which one does better, I will start tweaking player positions, roles, instructions and set pieces. For example, I want to know if AML/R are doing good next version, so I would get the best version and move ML/R position up.
Most of those tests will be done on my own, and only the most promising would be posted here. Blue 3.0, however, will be posted right away, since I believe any top tactic is worth converting to the new version at start.
kyle4921 said: Sure. I've improved on morale issues and it's much better than previously and my physical attributes are way above average in the league but I'm still being outclassed every game. I'm really not sure what to do. Expand
Well, only thing you can do is use team talk and shouts to motivate them and see how it goes. Try this: - During pre-match team talk, tell the team there is no pressure, to relieve some of their stress. Then, tell defenders and midfielders (entire team) that you have faith on them. - If you team is not winning, use shouts to encourage them. If they are winning, praise them. - During half time team talk, if you are not winning, tell them you are not happy with their performance. If you are winning, tell them you are happy.
That's what I usually do when I play the weakest team of a championship.
kyle4921 said: Does this tactic work in lower league still? I'm playing as Slough and promoted from the South league and National league in my first seasons using a different tactic and lost play offs in my first season in League Two. I've switched to this tactic in the pre season and I'm really struggling. I'm only 3 points outside of the relegation zone after 14 games. Is there something I'm doing wrong or does the tactic not work with bad teams anymore? My striker that was top goal scorer in the league last season has scored only 4 goals in 14 games. If you could offer any advice that would be appreciated. Expand
From what I can see, your players morale is not so good. I would start talking to them individually to raise that. Compliment those that trained over 8.0 last week and warn those that trained under 6.2. Do the same for last match and form (last 5 matches).
Another obvious problem is that you have way too many players unhappy or asking to leave. I'm not sure how that happened, but that certainly has a negative impact in performance, since players like to support their friends.
Third point is that you just got promoted, so it's natural for your squad to be weaker than your opponents. To have some chance under those circumstances, you need a fast squad, above average on pace, acceleration and agility. How are those stats on your first team? Can you show the physical comparison of your team to the rest of the league?
Other than that, I can only wish the best of luck since I don't have enough information to help.
LPCrooks said: That is your argument, that there are worse tactics? According to this ranking, yes. But I'll tell you something, in FM13 there was a ranking of tactics similar to the one made by Mr Hough, and in that ranking there was a tactic created by a certain "Qetesh". It was neither in the top 10 in FMBase, nor was it in the top 20 in voting in FMKorea... but it turns out it was one of the best FM13 tactics, for me the best. The good thing about Qetesh was that he played 2 full seasons, without simulating games or going on vacation, and then he shared the tactics and the results... In short, I do not criticize the tactics, in fact, I have thanked the author for his effort and for sharing it. I have played 2 full seasons, I have shared the results and I have concluded that I am not convinced. I HAVE GIVEN MY OPINION. So much is it difficult for you to respect that? Or do I have to lie if I didn't like it? Expand
I'm just saying the same tactic, in the same season and same conditions, can lead to completely different results. You can take it any way you want, but in the end, you are just criticizing the RNG.
You can argue that you or some players tested a tactic and thought it was the best, but a statistical analysis is usually more reliable than opinions.
LPCrooks said: Thanks @Lapidus , but I've been playing Football Manager since the 2009 version. I'm not talking about any conspiracy or 2nd season syndrome. But from a consistent tactic I hope it will give me a regular performance. If I do 100 goals and 100 points in the championship first year after having made 14 transfers, I understand that in the 2nd year I will have a similar performance since the players have already been playing together for a year and they know each other more. I'm not talking about winning the league again, Madrid and Barsa can perform at their level and win the championship the following year. But it doesn't make any sense that one year he scored 100 goals, he could have scored many more because clear chances were missed, and the following year, the same team with better cohesion, barely scored 30 goals in the middle of the championship. If it does for you, it's your opinion and I have nothing more to say. My opinion from my experience is this. Expand
Check the six results from any tactic in this site, even the top ones. You will see they can go from as high as 180 points to as low as 140, which is a difference of almost 25%. And here we are talking about tests that remove lots of random variables, like injuries, fatigue and so on.
In short, RNG still plays some role in this game. If the top tier tactics are not consistent, you can expect even worse from tactics of lower score. (P.S.: Or maybe they are more consistent, but being consistently worse is not what you are looking for.)
Bonka said: Simple question. If i use some training schedules which are differ from yours, will the results be affected ? Because you know, i want to use some technical or set pieces training to coach for some young players in my team. Expand
Match preparation, team cohesion, player happiness and general fitness (including avoiding injuries and fatigue) affect the results directly. However, how much the results are affected is up to debate, since I never heard about a study of training schedules and their impact on results.
What I can say is that my training schedules are focused in maximizing the chance to win in the current season. On developing players for future seasons, speed attributes are proven to be the most important for this version of FM, so my training schedules focus mostly on improving quickness.
Does this mean my training schedule is the best? Not at all, since different players might have different goals. For example, you might want to focus on improving players for future seasons, switching match preparation for some specific training (like more quickness). You could also use heavier training schedules and rest players manually, which would potentialy get better results (if you manage to avoid fatigue and injuries).
Anyway, I don't think using a different training schedule would make that much of a difference. You might lose a small bonus to next match, but you are getting other bonuses instead, which might even out in the end.
what seasone ... i start this tactic on midle of sesaone and great resulat 1st in history i win serbian cup and finish 3 place on table ... go hard on next sesaon so good Expand
Gratz! What was your position in table before using Blue?
Nebuuuu said: Hey ZaZ@Co. I`m finally registered here, to say BIG THX for this tactic.
At the moment i`m in my 2nd season@Bundesliga with my favourite team Hertha BSC. 1st season i got awesome results with a wierd team for this formation, because irl Hertha don`t have any good winger anymore and no fast Striker (almost everyone on loan or sold).
This is the end of the 1st season:
Lost the final@penalties to Frankfurt in the german football cup.
This, the 2nd season, 10 matches before end of the Bundesliga and 12 points ahead, place one.
Also 1st time Groupstage Champions League ez won and now vs Besiktas Istanbul, which should be kinda easy.
All this in my 2nd year@Hertha BSC.
I transferred alot players the last months. Fast, young, talented players came in. A few "Oldies" as backup and alot of youngsters for 2nd team.
1st year transfers (had almost 0 wingers or fast offensive player), escpecially for the left side.
2nd year transfers.
Also a few good, fast, young player came back from Loan (Dilrosun,Maier for CM etc.) and i bought Matheus Cunha back from Athletico for only 11,5 Mio.€ (he fits perfect as SS and is 30Mio.€ now, season not even over).
BUT...i have to say ZaZ, i tried your training-setup only the first few months in the 1st season, which gave me way more injured players even when i tried to rotate hard and watch the fatigue. I let my assists lead the training and it got a little bit better. I mean...i will try your training the 3rd season again, because i have a better team now with 2-3 player for each position + better/more assists, physios.
So far, thanks alot bro and stay safe. Have a awesome CL night@all. Expand
Thank you and congratulations! I hope you can win the UCL this season.
About training, I added my training schedules more because people asked, but I didn't do any experiment with training to know what's more effective, and I don't have any more knowledge about it than other players. I just use what I think makes sense to improve cohesion, give match bonuses, train speed attributes and give happiness, which I think are the most important things about training.
When I use those schedules, I rarely get many injuries. I mean, it's common to get short injuries of two or three days, and maybe have one or two players in longer injuries, but it never caused me trouble during the season. The In-Season schedule is actually pretty light, it shouldn't cause many more injuries than training from assistant manager. Maybe you got unlucky, or maybe your team has high injury proneness.
Make a save file at the start of the game with one or two teams. Set the conditions you want to test and run the entire season, then take note of points, goals scored and goals conceded. Reload, set up again and re-run until you have five results. Discard the two best scores and the two worst scores (sorted by points), and you will have your median, meaning you expect half of any other tests to be above this threshold and half to be below. This is how good your tactic is. Now do the same to the second variant, with a different throw-in setting, and compare the medians. The one with best points per match is probably better.
To have higher confidence in your result, you can either isolate variables, like freezing attribute growth, removing injuries and setting some stuff to maximum (like morale, condition and tactical familiarity), or you can increase the number of runs (always discarding the best and worst to pick the middle one), or you can increase the number of matches in a season.
If you want even more confidence, then instead of median you can make plot boxes, or do a rank test like mann-whitney, but that would probably be too much for just a game.
I usually do the first option, five tests on vacation mode then compare the medians.
P.S.: The point of discarding best and worst scores instead of using the average value of all runs is to avoid outliers, which are runs that didn't reflect what you really want to test. For example, a season full of injuries, or a season where the team played too well and all opponents too badly because of RNG. Those outliers can cause distortions, so they should be handled somehow before drawing conclusions.
Team Report -> Analyst Report -> Scoring -> Assists.
However, you shouldn't look at throw-ins only by assists. In my setup, it usually gives no assists at all, but put players in position to make key passes. Unfortunately, you can't check the stats for pre-assists.
anyway how fm-arena give test result rating?
total win / total match?
I believe what matters is points per match, which is the formula you stated above.
- Run a whole season in vacation mode with Manchester City and Fulham, using the same tactic, 5 times, and store the results.
- Repeat the experiment in the same save file, reducing the height of all players by 5 cm (or 2 inches, for those that still use that primitive measurement unit).
- Compare the medians of points and goal difference.
Results were inconclusive. For Fulham, there was no noticiable difference, with exactly the same points per match and goal difference. For Manchester City, short players did worse, with a median 6 points below normal height players. However, the best run of both sides were similar, with 102 points and 86 goal difference.
Therefore, I believe height doesn't make that much of a difference on performance, and if there is a difference, then taller is better.
That experiment was considering all positions, because it would be hardly noticiable if I changed only for DM.
Gratz! Very good team management there, I can tell you rotated well by the short squad (23 players) with very few injuries, no fatigue and everyone happy with play time. Good job!
I'm not arguing that you want more dynamic player in that position, I'm just not convinced that height has anything to do with that. The only way to know is isolating this variable and checking it's impact in performance, which I am trying to do. Gonna show results later.
I mean, I understand your point of wanting a cerebral player in that position, and that tall players are often strong instead of technical or cerebral. However, I can't see the correlation between height and those attributes. I'll run some experiments here with height using the in-game editor and see how short x tall players compare.
I couldn't get why the anchor can't be too tall. Can you elaborate on that, please?
I think there will be more goals for the Strikers etc. the coming season, because they are way better now.
What we won (Bundesliga, German Cup, German Supercup, Champions League)
72 (!) unbeaten matches since Saturday, the 30th January 2021.
League-Table at the end of the season.
Could be a little more goals, a little less conceded goals in some matches.
But overall an awesome endresult! And yeah...Haaland is a beast.
That`s it. If anyone didn`t tested this tactic, try it.
And try my Boost if someone isn`t full convinced.
The Morale, like always in FM, is pretty important. And with the Tactic-Talk-Praise 1d before matchday, it helps + Throw-ins from the Phoenix-Tactic. (big shoutout to the Magician!)
That`s from me. I will play a little now, FIFA Club Worldcup is waiting.
You know it's a game when you see Bayern Munich in 6th at local league. Anyway, thanks for testing the tatic and gratz for the results!
P.S.: By the way, FIFA Club Worldcup is just a friendly competition, like UEFA Super Cup or FA Community Shield. I hope they fix it someday giving a more entertaining format, because it would be awesome to see european teams play seriously against the likes of Palmeiras, Flamengo, Boca or River.
Well, it might be. After every season, I like to renew around 10% to 20% of my squad. At that time, I usually cut players that have good attributes, but didn't perform well for the whole season. Without seeing hidden attributes, you need to guess who has high injury proneness, low consistency, high dirtness and so on. If the player has very good attributes, you can always give him one more season, but if you find someone better to replace him, just let it go.
Anyway, it's hard to guess why teams go into bad spells. There are too many variables other than tactics that affect the game, which is nice or FM would be very boring.
Gpassosbh said: Hello @ZaZ , do you have a plan for FM22 yet? Or you think it's too early?
My plan is to start with three tests:
1. Blue 3.0.
2. Blue 3.0 with AF, in case they are more effective in the next version. Would also try moving CM to SS and see which does better.
3. Blue 3.0 with three defenders, using the new role. The extra defender would move to SS/AF, and I also plan to try with the CM moved to DM.
Those would be my initial tactics. After knowing which one does better, I will start tweaking player positions, roles, instructions and set pieces. For example, I want to know if AML/R are doing good next version, so I would get the best version and move ML/R position up.
Most of those tests will be done on my own, and only the most promising would be posted here. Blue 3.0, however, will be posted right away, since I believe any top tactic is worth converting to the new version at start.
Well, only thing you can do is use team talk and shouts to motivate them and see how it goes. Try this:
- During pre-match team talk, tell the team there is no pressure, to relieve some of their stress. Then, tell defenders and midfielders (entire team) that you have faith on them.
- If you team is not winning, use shouts to encourage them. If they are winning, praise them.
- During half time team talk, if you are not winning, tell them you are not happy with their performance. If you are winning, tell them you are happy.
That's what I usually do when I play the weakest team of a championship.
From what I can see, your players morale is not so good. I would start talking to them individually to raise that. Compliment those that trained over 8.0 last week and warn those that trained under 6.2. Do the same for last match and form (last 5 matches).
Another obvious problem is that you have way too many players unhappy or asking to leave. I'm not sure how that happened, but that certainly has a negative impact in performance, since players like to support their friends.
Third point is that you just got promoted, so it's natural for your squad to be weaker than your opponents. To have some chance under those circumstances, you need a fast squad, above average on pace, acceleration and agility. How are those stats on your first team? Can you show the physical comparison of your team to the rest of the league?
Other than that, I can only wish the best of luck since I don't have enough information to help.
I'm just saying the same tactic, in the same season and same conditions, can lead to completely different results. You can take it any way you want, but in the end, you are just criticizing the RNG.
You can argue that you or some players tested a tactic and thought it was the best, but a statistical analysis is usually more reliable than opinions.
Check the six results from any tactic in this site, even the top ones. You will see they can go from as high as 180 points to as low as 140, which is a difference of almost 25%. And here we are talking about tests that remove lots of random variables, like injuries, fatigue and so on.
In short, RNG still plays some role in this game. If the top tier tactics are not consistent, you can expect even worse from tactics of lower score. (P.S.: Or maybe they are more consistent, but being consistently worse is not what you are looking for.)
Match preparation, team cohesion, player happiness and general fitness (including avoiding injuries and fatigue) affect the results directly. However, how much the results are affected is up to debate, since I never heard about a study of training schedules and their impact on results.
What I can say is that my training schedules are focused in maximizing the chance to win in the current season. On developing players for future seasons, speed attributes are proven to be the most important for this version of FM, so my training schedules focus mostly on improving quickness.
Does this mean my training schedule is the best? Not at all, since different players might have different goals. For example, you might want to focus on improving players for future seasons, switching match preparation for some specific training (like more quickness). You could also use heavier training schedules and rest players manually, which would potentialy get better results (if you manage to avoid fatigue and injuries).
Anyway, I don't think using a different training schedule would make that much of a difference. You might lose a small bonus to next match, but you are getting other bonuses instead, which might even out in the end.
what seasone ... i start this tactic on midle of sesaone and great resulat
Gratz! What was your position in table before using Blue?
Gegenpress.
I get lots of small injuries, but it's very rare to get more than two or three players with injuries longer than two weeks.
I`m finally registered here, to say BIG THX for this tactic.
At the moment i`m in my 2nd season@Bundesliga with my favourite team Hertha BSC.
1st season i got awesome results with a wierd team for this formation, because irl Hertha don`t have any good winger anymore and no fast Striker (almost everyone on loan or sold).
This is the end of the 1st season:
Lost the final@penalties to Frankfurt in the german football cup.
This, the 2nd season, 10 matches before end of the Bundesliga and 12 points ahead, place one.
Also 1st time Groupstage Champions League ez won and now vs Besiktas Istanbul, which should be kinda easy.
All this in my 2nd year@Hertha BSC.
I transferred alot players the last months.
Fast, young, talented players came in. A few "Oldies" as backup and alot of youngsters for 2nd team.
1st year transfers (had almost 0 wingers or fast offensive player), escpecially for the left side.
2nd year transfers.
Also a few good, fast, young player came back from Loan (Dilrosun,Maier for CM etc.) and i bought Matheus Cunha back from Athletico for only 11,5 Mio.€ (he fits perfect as SS and is 30Mio.€ now, season not even over).
BUT...i have to say ZaZ, i tried your training-setup only the first few months in the 1st season, which gave me way more injured players even when i tried to rotate hard and watch the fatigue.
I let my assists lead the training and it got a little bit better.
I mean...i will try your training the 3rd season again, because i have a better team now with 2-3 player for each position + better/more assists, physios.
So far, thanks alot bro and stay safe.
Have a awesome CL night@all.
Thank you and congratulations! I hope you can win the UCL this season.
About training, I added my training schedules more because people asked, but I didn't do any experiment with training to know what's more effective, and I don't have any more knowledge about it than other players. I just use what I think makes sense to improve cohesion, give match bonuses, train speed attributes and give happiness, which I think are the most important things about training.
When I use those schedules, I rarely get many injuries. I mean, it's common to get short injuries of two or three days, and maybe have one or two players in longer injuries, but it never caused me trouble during the season. The In-Season schedule is actually pretty light, it shouldn't cause many more injuries than training from assistant manager. Maybe you got unlucky, or maybe your team has high injury proneness.
Gratz!