It's a hard issue because the more we test, the more we get close to a set of instructions or roles that work better than others. After some point, it's hard to run away from that if you want your tactic to be competitive. I don't think anyone has a problem with using someone's else tactic as a base, the problem is finding out when some tactic becomes unique enough to allow claiming it as your own.
In my opinion, any tactic with too few changes, like only two or three visible differences (not counting player instructions or set pieces), should be called a tweak instead of having a unique name. In those cases, it's pretty obvious credits are mandatory. It can still have a unique name with the base name, like "Revelation SS Tweak - Rush" or "Rush (Revelation Tweak)", for example.
The hard part is defining when changes are deep enough to stop being a tweak. I would say you can't use team instructions and player instructions to define that, as most top tactics use a very similar set of those instructions (which don't need to be called "Blue instructions" anymore at this point). However, some team instructions actually change gameplay drastically and should count for tactic uniqueness, like low tempo, pressing less, regroup, hold shape, shoot on sight and low line of engagement, for example.
Other than those more unique team instructions, what should be counted are basically different team positions and roles. Any tactic that only changes one position, like pulling a striker from AF to SS, should be considered a tweak (unless it's something that has been historically used by some user, in previous patches/versions of the game). That also counts for making some shape into a three defender tactic, for example, or just moving the wings. More than that and it gets in the spot where it's fine to either call it a tweak or claim ownership of the tactic.
Changes in roles, however, have a smaller weight than change in position. I would say changing the roles of two or three positions should still count as a tweak, if there aren't any other changes other than that. When the changes hit half the team, or when you change roles together with some team instruction or position, then it starts becoming more unique.
One way to address the problem could be, for example, to add a field at tactic creation to link to the tactic used as base, if it's a tweak.
Some people tested Ease Off Tackles with high intensity tactics and said it was harmful. It might have better effect on low intensity tactics like Cyan.
cptdoggo said: Glad to see someone else using F9's! They're pretty damn good this year and really fun to watch. What are the specific settings on the testing league? Would you mind sharing it @ZaZ ? Expand
All leagues and professional clubs other than England are removed, including international cups. Also, all players from Premier League have maximum consistency and important matches, as well as minimum injury proneness. In the save file I provided, transfers are also blocked during first season.
ta2199 said: Do you plan to make a "condition saving tactic" ? Look like this year tactics has to go in pair. Expand
I will look after that after next patch, since new ME will come soon. I first want to know what works before trying to optimize the tactic and build that kind of variation.
ta2199 said: Do that mean we should remove Tackle hard TI ? Expand
In this tactic, I changed all PIs from tackle harder to ease off tackles, and it didn't affect the score at all. It doesn't mean the same will happen to any tactic, but I think it's worth a try.
I guess the results confirm what I said in previous post, that it should be a default instruction for players in this tactic. I recommend people to try the same for your tactics to see if it also holds for high intensity tactics and different formations.
Mark said: Isn't it interesting that it doesn't change the rating. You were right. This may mean we can stop a lot of the red cards people have been getting. Expand
Less cards, less injuries, less fatigue, less tired players needing to rotate... Definitely should be used over tackle harder.
Added a version with Ease Off Tackles to compare and see how it goes. In my tests, I couldn't catch much difference. If results are alike, then the player instruction should become standard (at least for this setup, should test for others) since it reduces cards and energy cost.
To be honest, I tried that shape when I was working on Green, but it didn't go very well with me. Good thing you made it work, because it's one of the most common shapes in real football.
Zealot said: @cptdoggo, the roles and duties in my tactic and your tactic have been tried millions times already. If you want I can find you many tactics from FM21, FM20, FM19 that uses similar roles and duties.
You really can't come with anything unique at this point in FM. Everything has been tried already and you inevitably will use something that already has been tried by someone else. Expand
Just like you said, it's pretty hard to run away from the optimal set of TIs and roles if you want to reach a certain level of performance. It will have a difference or two, but most of it will be the same.
I would say credits are needed when someone uses a tactic as base then make just two or three changes, because then it's just a tweak. When you change a couple more of roles, positions and TIs, then it starts becoming a completely new thing, so it's up to the author to give credits or not (nice but not mandatory).
From my side, I can see this tactic is different from the ones I created, even if it has some similarities here and there. I would say it might be inspired, but it's not just a tweak of my tactics.
Can you please stop copying my tactics without giving any credits?
P.S.: Sorry, I don't have ownership over formations, roles, team instructions, player instructions or set pieces. You might very well have seen my tactic around and got inspiration to mix with yours, or maybe you even had the same idea based on how well Revelation did with IF+AF. Saying you copied was not cool and for that I apologize. It's just that your last tactics have always been too close to mine, and I have been testing this shape for a couple of days, as you can see by the dates below.
This is probably the weirdest shape you have seen in FM22 yet. Meet Purple, my newest tactic that proves I have no clue what I'm doing. Tested with Manchester and Norwich in my custom save, and Arsenal and Fiorentina in a clean save.
Player instructions, set pieces and all other details are the same as Blue from FM21.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
saitjerome said: do u think changing the mentality have any effects on possesion? like, with positive mentality u'll have 60% poss, but attacking mentality 55%? Expand
It affects pass directness and tempo, so yeah, it will decrease possession.
Nikko said: I just downloaded the game saves of Cyan and Blue tactic and the possession difference is about 5% between them... honestly, I don't think it's worth bothering with possession, especially, when you trade 5% possession for 5% better result Expand
I don't worry much about possession, but some people like to play tactics with more ball retention. I'm trying to open more options to people instead of just fine tuning a perfect tactic. I might not get on top of the table, but at least it motivates people to try something new.
In my opinion, any tactic with too few changes, like only two or three visible differences (not counting player instructions or set pieces), should be called a tweak instead of having a unique name. In those cases, it's pretty obvious credits are mandatory. It can still have a unique name with the base name, like "Revelation SS Tweak - Rush" or "Rush (Revelation Tweak)", for example.
The hard part is defining when changes are deep enough to stop being a tweak. I would say you can't use team instructions and player instructions to define that, as most top tactics use a very similar set of those instructions (which don't need to be called "Blue instructions" anymore at this point). However, some team instructions actually change gameplay drastically and should count for tactic uniqueness, like low tempo, pressing less, regroup, hold shape, shoot on sight and low line of engagement, for example.
Other than those more unique team instructions, what should be counted are basically different team positions and roles. Any tactic that only changes one position, like pulling a striker from AF to SS, should be considered a tweak (unless it's something that has been historically used by some user, in previous patches/versions of the game). That also counts for making some shape into a three defender tactic, for example, or just moving the wings. More than that and it gets in the spot where it's fine to either call it a tweak or claim ownership of the tactic.
Changes in roles, however, have a smaller weight than change in position. I would say changing the roles of two or three positions should still count as a tweak, if there aren't any other changes other than that. When the changes hit half the team, or when you change roles together with some team instruction or position, then it starts becoming more unique.
One way to address the problem could be, for example, to add a field at tactic creation to link to the tactic used as base, if it's a tweak.
??
Speaking english is a good start. Then, click share tactic here https://fm-arena.com/board/7-football-manager-2022-tactics-sharing-section/, and make sure to add screenshots of results and the tactic screen.
Test switching all Tackle Harder PIs for Ease Off Tackles. In my control tactic (Cyan), it gives similar results using way less energy.
P.S.: Oops, instant reply.
All leagues and professional clubs other than England are removed, including international cups. Also, all players from Premier League have maximum consistency and important matches, as well as minimum injury proneness. In the save file I provided, transfers are also blocked during first season.
Then I start naming the tactics like "RBG03AF84ManC300ptsAllCups".
I will look after that after next patch, since new ME will come soon. I first want to know what works before trying to optimize the tactic and build that kind of variation.
In this tactic, I changed all PIs from tackle harder to ease off tackles, and it didn't affect the score at all. It doesn't mean the same will happen to any tactic, but I think it's worth a try.
Mark said: Isn't it interesting that it doesn't change the rating. You were right. This may mean we can stop a lot of the red cards people have been getting.
Less cards, less injuries, less fatigue, less tired players needing to rotate... Definitely should be used over tackle harder.
I've heard @ZaZ did a good possession tactic. You can try ask him.
The one I posted earlier is in the 5.3 range. I will try to improve it to at least 5.5.
Not sure what team is that, but you destroyed the league!
The TIs and Mentality that I use this tactic and @ZaZ uses in some of his tactic also have been tested very well already. For example, look at @Cyborg's Void tactic - https://fm-arena.com/tactic/959-void-ver-2-0/
Here's my tactic from FM21 https://fm-arena.com/tactic/960-afterlife-v5-0/ as you can see I prefer using RPM(S) role on the DM position.
You really can't come with anything unique at this point in FM. Everything has been tried already and you inevitably will use something that already has been tried by someone else.
Just like you said, it's pretty hard to run away from the optimal set of TIs and roles if you want to reach a certain level of performance. It will have a difference or two, but most of it will be the same.
I would say credits are needed when someone uses a tactic as base then make just two or three changes, because then it's just a tweak. When you change a couple more of roles, positions and TIs, then it starts becoming a completely new thing, so it's up to the author to give credits or not (nice but not mandatory).
From my side, I can see this tactic is different from the ones I created, even if it has some similarities here and there. I would say it might be inspired, but it's not just a tweak of my tactics.
Probably not gonna happen this patch, but maybe 3-1?
P.S.: Sorry, I don't have ownership over formations, roles, team instructions, player instructions or set pieces. You might very well have seen my tactic around and got inspiration to mix with yours, or maybe you even had the same idea based on how well Revelation did with IF+AF. Saying you copied was not cool and for that I apologize. It's just that your last tactics have always been too close to mine, and I have been testing this shape for a couple of days, as you can see by the dates below.
Player instructions, set pieces and all other details are the same as Blue from FM21.
Leave a comment below if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
It affects pass directness and tempo, so yeah, it will decrease possession.
I don't worry much about possession, but some people like to play tactics with more ball retention. I'm trying to open more options to people instead of just fine tuning a perfect tactic. I might not get on top of the table, but at least it motivates people to try something new.
It usually doesn't do well, probably because his tests are always made with Liverpool.