infxamus said: Seems that the effectiveness of Long Throw Ins have been nerfed. Has anyone tried using mixed throw ins for their set piece? Expand
I did try briefly, it was better for weak team and worse for strong team. I also tested quick and short, but not much success. However, I didn't test these deeper, with different set ups. I might try again in the next week.
babemocni1988 said: Nice to see that!Maybe i will change my opinion after seeing this,just nobody show me proof like this playing with the same tactic all the time,with underdog,with the same team,maybe after this I will start my new long save and try not to get frustrated so much,thanks pal! Expand
Just remember that any tactic will get some bad spells every now and then, with 4 or 5 matches without winning. It's fine as long as the season ends well. Focus on keeping the players happy, with high morale and low fatigue and everything will be fine. Also, remember to challenge them from time to time when you are in a winning spree, to avoid complacency.
For anyone interested in my Leamington journey, I ended up last season in 14th at Premier League. I also managed to upgrade my youth setup to maximum in all areas, including youth training, coaching, recruitment and level. Training facilities will need a couple more seasons to get maxed. In the current season, I am 5th and my goal is to reach the Euro Cup. I hired a couple of new faces and gonna link my best player below. Unfortunately, I still need one or two more seasons to increase my reputation so better players accept to join my team.
I'll post the stats of all my players by the end of the season, because I'm hoping to bring in some new faces during the next transfer window. I finally got world coverage and some good scouts, so I'm optimistic to step up and become champion in my third season at Premier League.
Anyway, I reduced my squad to 28 players, 6 of these from my youth set up. The other 22 are two players for each position. I am also rotating less, based on fatigue and injury risk, and allowing team B to play Carabao Cup and FA Cup (as well as those weeks when you have only one day to rest between matches). I was eliminated from Carabao Cup on the first match, which definitely helped me focus on the Premier League.
I'm playing with Leamington for six or seven years (in game) with the same tactic. It started on the lowest division of england and climbed up to Premier League. Last season I ended in 14th, and this season I am currently in 5th. For reference, I was predicted last place, with extremely low odds. The best player of my team is presented below, and as you can see, his CA should not be much higher than 100 (I can check next season when I sell him, with in-game editor).
I have yet to play a season where my team didn't overachieve by a lot. If opponents can't learn my tactic after six or seven seasons, I don't think they ever will.
infxamus said: In my RTG Nottingham Forest save I was using Phoenix 4.0 the whole time, not one change to the tacitc, unless we had injuries to the team (this was before the new patch)
In the championship we finished 3rd, but we got promoted
1st season in the Premier league: 6th 2nd Season: 3rd 3rd Season: 3rd (Europa League Win) 4th season: 2nd (Won UCL and FA Cup) 5th season: Won the league (Won FA Cup, lost in UCL Final) 6th season: Won the league by over 15 points (UCL,and FA Cup secured too)
In all of those seasons, we always went through a rough patch during December and January as that is when the players start getting tired with the amount of games played in such little time and it is the peak of injuries, sickness as well, it even got me thinking the CPU knew how to go against my tactic but we were back in form by the beginning of February Expand
By the end of the season you have not only fatigue, but also more decisive matches and pressure from the title race. That makes the team perform worse if they don't have the right mentality.
babemocni1988 said: And i think so I was not the only one having this problems in second seasons,and people often find excuses in new singings,team moral,reputation increased and blalalala,nobody from you guys wants to admit that AI read tactics,that is the fact,happend to me even playing on other patches this year,and playing on the previous FM 2020 Factor of the lucky is big for sure but the problem was not there...problem is that your team just doesnt crush opponents like before and you start conceding stupid goals also,your match higlights are not showing like before and you dont create like before,you need insane fast players on CM,SS and Wing position to be able to fight against ME,this is why tactic doesnt stop working for big teams who have players flighting all over the pitch! That is my opinion as i sad and i would like that someone can do to change my mind... Expand
I don't understand why you are claiming your opinion is a fact, based solely in feelings and in your personal experience, ignoring the experience of everyone else. I mean, it's very easy to find a counter-example to what you are saying. Run a season in holiday mode or instant mode. Then save and continue it without any new hiring, with the same tactics, then reload and repeat 5 times. Now reload and go with another tactic. I doubt the results will be much different than what you would expect from each tactic. Just so you know, the same tactic can variate more than 15 points in the same save, with the same tactics.
babemocni1988 said: Trust me that nobody more than me want to play one tactic all the time, hate to change it,because in my philosophy every manager should have a DNA or system thats make you unique,like Pep,Klop,Conte...they dont change tactics every year But I realy saw in my second season that my team is not even close like in first season,tryed to change mentality,restarted games many times but i could find a reason why is not working,then i just reloaded again,put another strong different tactic and guess what,i am winning again,even if I am not happy because i changed the formation and i hate that! Expand
I play with the same tactic all year long and it works fine to me. Most people also play with the same tactic for several seasons without any problem. I think there must be another reason why your team crumbles in the second season.
The game works in a way that the more you win, the higher your chance to lose, since your players build complacency. The same way, the more you lose, the higher your chance to keep losing, since you lose morale. You need to manage those two things to make your team consistent.
Maybe you had a set of players in a bad streak, like the shadow strikers, then you changed to a tactic that don't depend as much on those players. Then it increased your morale and you started winning, while if you lost you would enter a dark spiral.
babemocni1988 said: and explane me why i am dominating again with the same players with different tactic after restarted season?? Expand
It's probably just RNG. Phoenix v5.0 is better than Phoenix v3.0, which was at the top of the table not so long ago. If people could win everything before, they should be able to win even easier now. Actually, most tactics from the top 10 or 20 are able to overachieve a lot. If the tactic "stopped working" for a while, you should check if your players morale is good, if their fatigue is high, if they are happy and if you are keeping them motivated. Any tactic will crumble if you don't manage the human side of the players, meaning their physical and mental sides.
There are also other factors. For example, some players don't rest during holiday, playing international matches instead. That builds up fatigue, which makes them play worse, even with 100% condition. Another factor is happiness, since in the second year players start complaining more about playing time and new contracts. Your players can also get complacent for winning matches and growing in stature, meaning you must keep challenging them to keep their level high.
krozan said: Hey, I'm back for the end of season update and what a turnaround was the rest of the season, mainly thanks to your rotation advice, I feel that rotating the team (more than i already did before) really made a differtence, and so did improving the morale of the team.
So, on the most underwhelming part of the season I again ended 2nd place with 82 points, 3 points away from champions Man Utd, but I feel that it was a odd year because usually the champion has a lot more points than 85.
Won the carabao cup and was knocked out of the FA Cup by Livepool in the QF, and... for the biggest highlight of the season, I ended up winning the champions league! Knocking out PSG, Liverpool, Juventus and Man Utd in the Final, along the way.
So thanks a lot for the tips and helping me turn around the season!
Some points I noticed for this tactic:
- While using the dark blue tactic I didn't score one single goal this entire season. - Light blue tactic didn't seem to sabe that much stamina, at least the difference wasn't very noticeable to me. - I feel that, against even and stronger teams, it's best to keep Cautious mentality the entire game, switching to anything above Positive didn't make any difference whatsoever in any of the games. - While the attributes table states that pace is the most important attribute, my best performing players weren't my fastest ones. My sub striker ended the season with 26 goals, and he has 14 pace, while Rodrigo, with 16 pace and 16 agility, and starting most matches ended the season with 14 goals. My other sub ended the season with 19 goals in 20 games, and he has 13 pace. The difference is that rodrigo has low finishing so I'm not sure if this stat isn't more important than it seems. - Fullbacks and DM usually get low match ratings, not sure why or how to have them perform better.
Here's the end of season screenshot:
Thanks again for the help! Expand
I'm glad you managed to save your season. Too bad you didn't win the league, but I guess you are more than happy for having won the UCL.
About your pointers, I will try to improve both Dark Blue and Light Blue. I haven't given much attention to them, but I'll see what I can do.
On wingbacks and dms, they usually get low score, but that doesn't matter as long as you win. It's probably because this patch heavily favors dribbling, so wingbacks get dribbled a lot and dms don't dribble as much as other positions (because they are often surrounded with passing options).
About attribute importance, not everything is goals. Sometimes the fast player contributes in other ways, like assistance or opening spaces for other strikers. Other attributes have some importance, but way less than speed attributes.
Cyborg said: I haven't tried it. Might give it a go. Expand
Have you tried changing the CM mentalities to support, or maybe even change role to something like BBM? It's probably gonna be worse, but it's one more idea to try and see if it improves defensively.
krozan said: Hey,so I used this tactic with Leeds. In first season while only doing two transfers in the summer (thiago almada and mason solomon) and one in the winter (kaio jorge), I finished 2nd in the league with 90 points tied with manchester city who got 1st, losing the title due to goal difference. Won the carabao cup and got eliminated from the FA Cup by Man City in penalties. Everything seemed to be going great!
However, for the 2nd season, this tactic is performing a lot worse, with considerably better players in the squad. I brought a couple of players with the attributes to fit this tactic (patson daka for SS, jonathan ikone for MC, Dodo for DR, Pervis Estupinan for DL and Ethan Ampadu for CB).
This is how my matches have gone so far after 16 GW:
And this is my current team:
Just for comparison, before trying out this tactic i was using the Cat 441v1 tactic from FM base and won everything except EL with Sporting in 1st season with only 1 loss in the league, and won everything including champions league on the 2nd season, again ending with only 1 or 2 losses.
And with Milan I won everything in the first season (league, cup and EL).
Any ideas why this tactic may have dropped off so much in the 2nd season and why it seems to perform considerably worse than cat441v1? Expand
Looking at the status of your player, I guess it's safe to assume you didn't do much rotation. I see half of your team needing rest when barely half of the season is gone. Also, their morale is rather poor for a team overachieving. Morale is one of the most important stats for good performances. I think those are the two areas you need to improve.
For rotation, a good tip is to either check the medical centre or add a column to the selection view to keep track of player fatigue. The more a player builds fatigue, the worse he trains and the worse he performs, even if his condition is 100%. This stat is mainly affected by number of minutes played in the previous weeks, so you need to either substitute players with high fatigue when the match is decided, or completely rest them during some easier matches. I would suggest a squad of at least 22 players, two for each position, and using all your three substitutions in every single game. Adding recovery or rest sessions to the training can also help.
For morale, it's all about praising players when they train or play well, warning when the train or play poorly, adding training sessions that increase happiness (like team bonding and match practice) and giving them more play time than expected. For playtime, I advise you lower the agreed playtime of every player to the minimum, then increase one step at a time until they are not unhappy anymore (do this during pre-season, since it will lower the morale). Rotation is needed to keep the entire squad happy, and winning matches obviously helps too.
I believe you can win easily from season one if you improve those two areas of the game.
infxamus said: It’s crazy that this is the only tactic that doesn’t use Mark Tighter on midfielders, Shadow Strikers and Wingers and still does extremely well Expand
I don't understand why either. The version 2.2 was better with mark tighter, but after the patch, it works better without.
Cyborg said: I don't know but lowering the mentality in this tactic doesn't work for me. Expand
It makes sense, since the extra striker benefits from hhaving a more direct game play (less players in the midfield). What about lower mentality and higher pass directness to compensate? I'm just brainstorming ideas here, not sure if any would work well.
I was thinking to use this tactic, but I like to have a defensive option for holding on to a lead in tough games/etc.
Narrow Blue Line by Mark has 1.34 GA GP (goals against per game) in testing and uses a similar shape, just 1 of the SS moved to DM, was thinking to alternate between the two tactics, using Mark's to hold onto leads and VOID to start all games.
Anyone tried similar or have any thoughts/suggestions? Expand
How does it get if you change mentality to cautious?
Yellow is my attempt to make Inverted Wingers viable, since they don't seem to work well in this patch. The tactic has only one striker to make sure spaces don't overlap when cutting inside. To improve width and depth, we use Wing Backs instead of Inverted Wing Backs. The rest is very similar to Blue 3.0.
Here is the tactic and results from a holiday test with Manchester City and Fulham.
Let me know in the comments how it performed for you!
I did try briefly, it was better for weak team and worse for strong team. I also tested quick and short, but not much success. However, I didn't test these deeper, with different set ups. I might try again in the next week.
Just remember that any tactic will get some bad spells every now and then, with 4 or 5 matches without winning. It's fine as long as the season ends well. Focus on keeping the players happy, with high morale and low fatigue and everything will be fine. Also, remember to challenge them from time to time when you are in a winning spree, to avoid complacency.
I'll post the stats of all my players by the end of the season, because I'm hoping to bring in some new faces during the next transfer window. I finally got world coverage and some good scouts, so I'm optimistic to step up and become champion in my third season at Premier League.
Anyway, I reduced my squad to 28 players, 6 of these from my youth set up. The other 22 are two players for each position. I am also rotating less, based on fatigue and injury risk, and allowing team B to play Carabao Cup and FA Cup (as well as those weeks when you have only one day to rest between matches). I was eliminated from Carabao Cup on the first match, which definitely helped me focus on the Premier League.
I have yet to play a season where my team didn't overachieve by a lot. If opponents can't learn my tactic after six or seven seasons, I don't think they ever will.
In the championship we finished 3rd, but we got promoted
1st season in the Premier league: 6th
2nd Season: 3rd
3rd Season: 3rd (Europa League Win)
4th season: 2nd (Won UCL and FA Cup)
5th season: Won the league (Won FA Cup, lost in UCL Final)
6th season: Won the league by over 15 points (UCL,and FA Cup secured too)
In all of those seasons, we always went through a rough patch during December and January as that is when the players start getting tired with the amount of games played in such little time and it is the peak of injuries, sickness as well, it even got me thinking the CPU knew how to go against my tactic but we were back in form by the beginning of February
By the end of the season you have not only fatigue, but also more decisive matches and pressure from the title race. That makes the team perform worse if they don't have the right mentality.
Factor of the lucky is big for sure but the problem was not there...problem is that your team just doesnt crush opponents like before and you start conceding stupid goals also,your match higlights are not showing like before and you dont create like before,you need insane fast players on CM,SS and Wing position to be able to fight against ME,this is why tactic doesnt stop working for big teams who have players flighting all over the pitch!
That is my opinion as i sad and i would like that someone can do to change my mind...
I don't understand why you are claiming your opinion is a fact, based solely in feelings and in your personal experience, ignoring the experience of everyone else. I mean, it's very easy to find a counter-example to what you are saying. Run a season in holiday mode or instant mode. Then save and continue it without any new hiring, with the same tactics, then reload and repeat 5 times. Now reload and go with another tactic. I doubt the results will be much different than what you would expect from each tactic. Just so you know, the same tactic can variate more than 15 points in the same save, with the same tactics.
But I realy saw in my second season that my team is not even close like in first season,tryed to change mentality,restarted games many times but i could find a reason why is not working,then i just reloaded again,put another strong different tactic and guess what,i am winning again,even if I am not happy because i changed the formation and i hate that!
I play with the same tactic all year long and it works fine to me. Most people also play with the same tactic for several seasons without any problem. I think there must be another reason why your team crumbles in the second season.
Maybe you had a set of players in a bad streak, like the shadow strikers, then you changed to a tactic that don't depend as much on those players. Then it increased your morale and you started winning, while if you lost you would enter a dark spiral.
It's probably just RNG. Phoenix v5.0 is better than Phoenix v3.0, which was at the top of the table not so long ago. If people could win everything before, they should be able to win even easier now. Actually, most tactics from the top 10 or 20 are able to overachieve a lot. If the tactic "stopped working" for a while, you should check if your players morale is good, if their fatigue is high, if they are happy and if you are keeping them motivated. Any tactic will crumble if you don't manage the human side of the players, meaning their physical and mental sides.
So, on the most underwhelming part of the season I again ended 2nd place with 82 points, 3 points away from champions Man Utd, but I feel that it was a odd year because usually the champion has a lot more points than 85.
Won the carabao cup and was knocked out of the FA Cup by Livepool in the QF, and... for the biggest highlight of the season, I ended up winning the champions league! Knocking out PSG, Liverpool, Juventus and Man Utd in the Final, along the way.
So thanks a lot for the tips and helping me turn around the season!
Some points I noticed for this tactic:
- While using the dark blue tactic I didn't score one single goal this entire season.
- Light blue tactic didn't seem to sabe that much stamina, at least the difference wasn't very noticeable to me.
- I feel that, against even and stronger teams, it's best to keep Cautious mentality the entire game, switching to anything above Positive didn't make any difference whatsoever in any of the games.
- While the attributes table states that pace is the most important attribute, my best performing players weren't my fastest ones. My sub striker ended the season with 26 goals, and he has 14 pace, while Rodrigo, with 16 pace and 16 agility, and starting most matches ended the season with 14 goals. My other sub ended the season with 19 goals in 20 games, and he has 13 pace. The difference is that rodrigo has low finishing so I'm not sure if this stat isn't more important than it seems.
- Fullbacks and DM usually get low match ratings, not sure why or how to have them perform better.
Here's the end of season screenshot:
Thanks again for the help!
I'm glad you managed to save your season. Too bad you didn't win the league, but I guess you are more than happy for having won the UCL.
About your pointers, I will try to improve both Dark Blue and Light Blue. I haven't given much attention to them, but I'll see what I can do.
On wingbacks and dms, they usually get low score, but that doesn't matter as long as you win. It's probably because this patch heavily favors dribbling, so wingbacks get dribbled a lot and dms don't dribble as much as other positions (because they are often surrounded with passing options).
About attribute importance, not everything is goals. Sometimes the fast player contributes in other ways, like assistance or opening spaces for other strikers. Other attributes have some importance, but way less than speed attributes.
Anyway, I hope you win everything next season!
Have you tried changing the CM mentalities to support, or maybe even change role to something like BBM? It's probably gonna be worse, but it's one more idea to try and see if it improves defensively.
However, for the 2nd season, this tactic is performing a lot worse, with considerably better players in the squad. I brought a couple of players with the attributes to fit this tactic (patson daka for SS, jonathan ikone for MC, Dodo for DR, Pervis Estupinan for DL and Ethan Ampadu for CB).
This is how my matches have gone so far after 16 GW:
And this is my current team:
Just for comparison, before trying out this tactic i was using the Cat 441v1 tactic from FM base and won everything except EL with Sporting in 1st season with only 1 loss in the league, and won everything including champions league on the 2nd season, again ending with only 1 or 2 losses.
And with Milan I won everything in the first season (league, cup and EL).
Any ideas why this tactic may have dropped off so much in the 2nd season and why it seems to perform considerably worse than cat441v1?
Looking at the status of your player, I guess it's safe to assume you didn't do much rotation. I see half of your team needing rest when barely half of the season is gone. Also, their morale is rather poor for a team overachieving. Morale is one of the most important stats for good performances. I think those are the two areas you need to improve.
For rotation, a good tip is to either check the medical centre or add a column to the selection view to keep track of player fatigue. The more a player builds fatigue, the worse he trains and the worse he performs, even if his condition is 100%. This stat is mainly affected by number of minutes played in the previous weeks, so you need to either substitute players with high fatigue when the match is decided, or completely rest them during some easier matches. I would suggest a squad of at least 22 players, two for each position, and using all your three substitutions in every single game. Adding recovery or rest sessions to the training can also help.
For morale, it's all about praising players when they train or play well, warning when the train or play poorly, adding training sessions that increase happiness (like team bonding and match practice) and giving them more play time than expected. For playtime, I advise you lower the agreed playtime of every player to the minimum, then increase one step at a time until they are not unhappy anymore (do this during pre-season, since it will lower the morale). Rotation is needed to keep the entire squad happy, and winning matches obviously helps too.
I believe you can win easily from season one if you improve those two areas of the game.
infxamus said: It’s crazy that this is the only tactic that doesn’t use Mark Tighter on midfielders, Shadow Strikers and Wingers and still does extremely well
I don't understand why either. The version 2.2 was better with mark tighter, but after the patch, it works better without.
No. I am aiming to get the best tactic with Inverted Wingers, but they perform very poorly in this patch.
It makes sense, since the extra striker benefits from hhaving a more direct game play (less players in the midfield). What about lower mentality and higher pass directness to compensate? I'm just brainstorming ideas here, not sure if any would work well.
I was thinking to use this tactic, but I like to have a defensive option for holding on to a lead in tough games/etc.
Narrow Blue Line by Mark has 1.34 GA GP (goals against per game) in testing and uses a similar shape, just 1 of the SS moved to DM, was thinking to alternate between the two tactics, using Mark's to hold onto leads and VOID to start all games.
Anyone tried similar or have any thoughts/suggestions?
How does it get if you change mentality to cautious?
Here is the tactic and results from a holiday test with Manchester City and Fulham.
Let me know in the comments how it performed for you!
Can you give link for 4222?
Link is below.
Gpassosbh said: Hello @ZaZ , have you ever tried one strikerless with libero?
Yes, it sucks.
Can you give link for 4222?
Sure, let me just finish this current run with inverted wingers.