Thanks for the test and thorough explanation. I would like to see the result for Blue to see how they compare. Looking just as it is, it seems bad for West Browwich and Hungerford, but they might just be very weak teams recently promoted. Have to compare with Blue to know for sure.
JTC said: I have been using Phoenix/Blue in my online game with friends and have achieved great success. High scoring (spread across the front 5 players) and solid defence. Biggest problem is with DLP(Su). Even when I play Camavinga he still has very low rating. I understand that rating does not reflect all but it would seem odd for a great player to score so low.
I have changed to Red in the last two games and immediately I noticed a few things.
First, the DM(Su) position now has much better rating. I believe the problem with Blue in that regard is that DLP(Su) is positioned too close to CM(A) so there is "too little" for the DLP(Su) to do save to recover the ball and pass upwards (occasionally long killer pass but rare). Now with DM(Su) you can see that he is positioned half notch downwards so there is more space away from the CM(A). I have a strong feeling that in this game rating is at least partially influenced by how much "work" a player will do during a match. From what I see from the match highlights, the DM(Su) is contributing much more than DLP(Su). There is more interaction with the the back four (given his closer position) and he runs more before passing to other players: in Blue he mainly interacts with CM(A) who is closest to him.
Second, and by similar logic, the DW(Su) contributes more than W(Su) because of their lower position. This made them interact more with the rest of the whole team. In Blue, W(Su) keeps bombing down the sideline to cross from the byline, and to great success, but far too monotone. When the DW(Su) is positioned further down, they would interact with others more, and this instills greater variety in terms of approach play e.g. I now see much more chances created by DW(Su) passing not from the byline but actually down the centre cutting across the opponent team's CB and FB.
Third, I think removing "take more risks" from most players save for CM(A) is a good move. It enhances the quality of the chances and definitely helps maintain possession.
Overall speaking, from what I observe so far, I think Red is a much better version than Blue even for strong/elite teams, provided of course you have the right players in each position. In fact I think Red whilst being a gegenpress does not necessarily need very pacey players. Running is important, but the player interaction and passing around the field mean chances are now created by slicing through the opponent's team rather than a particular player running past your opponent's players. Expand
Thanks for testing! Later I'll see if something from Red can be used in Blue, but it has been really hard to improve Blue as it's very close to optimal for strong teams. I know for a fact that Red is better than Blue for weak team, but most of those tweaks that improve for weaker team makes strong team play worse. In simple words, better players perform well with risky moves, while worse players perform better playing safer.
DoubleR said: Would you guys say Pace and acceleration are still the most OP stats? Like is it 'safe' to just have my whole team focus on those 2 for individual training? (together with the player role so other stats increase too of course) Expand
It is. I always set all line players additional focus to quickness (goalkeeper to reactions).
Thanks! It seems to be slightly worse for strong team than Blue 3.0, but my focus was making it stronger to the weak team, for those 160/140 CA tests. I hope someone will test it in that league so I know if it's really better. In my experiments, it's much better than Blue 3.0 for weaker team. Needs more testing from other people for confirmation.
crazyfmguy93 said: Why does my player worth so little versus AI players? Lets hear your advices for buy players with less cost, also sell players with more money. Expand
There is a hidden attribute called asking price, which is the minimum price a team is willing to receive in order to sell a player. In my experience, that value is around the middle ground of your offer and their counter-offer (for example, if you suggest 1 mi and they ask 7 mi, then the asking prince is around 4 mi).
For selling your players, it has a lot to do with how rich the buying team is and if they are are actively trying to buy or not. When you offer players to other clubs, the price is always smaller than when they bid for a player you are not willing to sell. There might be something behind it, but I don't know how it works exactly.
This is Red 3.0, a mix between Red and Blue 3.0. Player roles and instructions were adjusted based on the stats of a full season using Blue 3.0. For example, it was noticed that DLP wasn't producing enough chances to have "Take More Risks", as well as goalkeeper, so they changed to roles that don't force that instruction. In the end, it got pretty similar to this tactic, so I incorporated a couple of instructions that improved performance. It performs similar to Blue 3.0 for strong teams, but delivers better results with weaker teams. Below are the tactics and results from a holiday test with Manchester City and Fulham.
Gracolas said: Quick question @ZaZ , im using your training schedules and then i apply for each player individual training for the role/position + quickness as focus, however i have like 5 or 6 players that are unhappy due to the focus im asking.
What do you do in these case? just ignore and keep the training or remove the focus for these unhappy players? Expand
I just let them whine. As long as they are improving stats and still happy because of other reasons, it doesn't matter much.
Exsodya said: I can try it mate, could you please screenshots for Xbox? Expand
Spoiler PIs GK: Take Fewer Risks DR/L: Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward, Tackle Harder DC: Dribble Less, Tackle Harder DM: Hold Position, Tackle Harder MR/L: Take More Risks, Cross From Byline, Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward MC: Take More Risks, Shoot Less Often, Move Into Channels, Tackle Harder SS: Tackle Harder
Set pieces are the same as Blue 3.0, with images in the first post.
My version was almost identical, but had DM with dribble less and CM with dribble more, and didn't have Force Oposition Outside, but it seems to work better with those instructions taken from Lida, from fm-base.
Exsodya said: Thank you ZaZ, when will you release your new tactic and how it’s going better than V3? Expand
It's actually a variant of Red, the "parent" of Blue, since I couldn't improve much from positive mentality. I'm using data from the end of season to optimize it, meaning dribbles per game, chances created, key passes and goals. DLP was switched to DM since it's not contributing much with chances created, to remove "take more risks". SK was also changed to defend for a similar reason, to stop giving away possession.
However, I found a tactic with similar roles in fm-base. Since it was posted 5 days after Red and Blue, it has probably inspiration on them, or maybe in Phoenix that was also released a couple of days after Red and Blue. Problem is, the player instructions of that tactic are pretty close to what I was coming up, but just copying their player instructions is giving me slightly better results for weaker teams.
I will post it down here if someone wanna test it, but I'm still making experiments myself.
P.S.: If anyone is curious about the data I talk about, it's something like this:
As you can see, the DLP is creating as "many" chances of goal as the BPD, meaning their "take more risks" is probably just giving away possession instead of doing anything useful.
Belmorn said: @ZaZ I see your training schedule, its pretty brutal on the physical department. Have you actually seen good increase in pace / endurance over the course of time with it ? Also how do you set intensity with it, normally when they are 90%+ I set to double intensity, using the training schedule of pre season got me a nice few injuries, just wondering if this is random bad luck me or should I lower the intensity to normal when above 90% ? Expand
With double intensity, there will be injuries, but most of them for around three days. Maybe a couple of injuries of two to four weeks, but if you have more than three or four players with long term injury during pre-season, then you either got unlucky or your players are prone to injury. The endurance training pays off later during the season, because increasing natural fitness and stamina helps the players perform better and suffer less injuries (better condition and match fitness). However, I would reduce to normal intensity during in-season since you want to keep your players in top shape and without injuries. Also, double intensity doesn't have effect on next match bonuses or recovery, making it less effective for that schedule.
You will usually see attributes growing after one or two months. Pace and Acceleration will increase the most if you are also doing individual training for quickness. I often increase 2 to 3 points in those attributes during each season, with training rates between 8 and 10 to most players. All other attributes also increase, but only 1 or 2 points per season.
Exsodya said: Okay than could you just post bargain eleven.
You don't put players that are not too expensive like mbappe or felix I Expand
I am going to tell a couple of names without looking at the price, checking only attributes from fminside.net. It's hard to say for sure because some leagues only allow a certain number of foreign players. I will also ignore hidden attributes that could be undesirable and players over 30 years old.
Exsodya said: Mate if it’s possible could you post your favorite 11 for your tactic. Because i like it sooo much.
It would be perfect if you can do it for high-mid-underdog teams, thank you in advance. Expand
It's hard because it depends on the club and league. For example, most top players don't want to to play in Brazil, Sweden or lower teams from England. There are also lots of budget players with stats decided at game generation. The perfect team would also cost too much to be realistic, since very few teams can afford the likes of Mbappé.
It's set as MR/L from the same side, but it's often someone else with higher attribute that takes them. These attacking corner routines are copied from Motion.
Grimlock said: If you mean hidden attributes then only "Consistency" and "Important Matches" are somehow involved into the calculation of match result. Expand
I thought Pressure, Temperament and Professionalism were useful to control the players body language. Don't they play worse when they get nervous or complacent, for example?
I have changed to Red in the last two games and immediately I noticed a few things.
First, the DM(Su) position now has much better rating. I believe the problem with Blue in that regard is that DLP(Su) is positioned too close to CM(A) so there is "too little" for the DLP(Su) to do save to recover the ball and pass upwards (occasionally long killer pass but rare). Now with DM(Su) you can see that he is positioned half notch downwards so there is more space away from the CM(A). I have a strong feeling that in this game rating is at least partially influenced by how much "work" a player will do during a match. From what I see from the match highlights, the DM(Su) is contributing much more than DLP(Su). There is more interaction with the the back four (given his closer position) and he runs more before passing to other players: in Blue he mainly interacts with CM(A) who is closest to him.
Second, and by similar logic, the DW(Su) contributes more than W(Su) because of their lower position. This made them interact more with the rest of the whole team. In Blue, W(Su) keeps bombing down the sideline to cross from the byline, and to great success, but far too monotone. When the DW(Su) is positioned further down, they would interact with others more, and this instills greater variety in terms of approach play e.g. I now see much more chances created by DW(Su) passing not from the byline but actually down the centre cutting across the opponent team's CB and FB.
Third, I think removing "take more risks" from most players save for CM(A) is a good move. It enhances the quality of the chances and definitely helps maintain possession.
Overall speaking, from what I observe so far, I think Red is a much better version than Blue even for strong/elite teams, provided of course you have the right players in each position. In fact I think Red whilst being a gegenpress does not necessarily need very pacey players. Running is important, but the player interaction and passing around the field mean chances are now created by slicing through the opponent's team rather than a particular player running past your opponent's players.
Thanks for testing! Later I'll see if something from Red can be used in Blue, but it has been really hard to improve Blue as it's very close to optimal for strong teams. I know for a fact that Red is better than Blue for weak team, but most of those tweaks that improve for weaker team makes strong team play worse. In simple words, better players perform well with risky moves, while worse players perform better playing safer.
It is. I always set all line players additional focus to quickness (goalkeeper to reactions).
General FM21. Acceleration and Pace are just too strong in this match engine.
I understand nothing of turkish, but thanks!
Thanks! It seems to be slightly worse for strong team than Blue 3.0, but my focus was making it stronger to the weak team, for those 160/140 CA tests. I hope someone will test it in that league so I know if it's really better. In my experiments, it's much better than Blue 3.0 for weaker team. Needs more testing from other people for confirmation.
There is a hidden attribute called asking price, which is the minimum price a team is willing to receive in order to sell a player. In my experience, that value is around the middle ground of your offer and their counter-offer (for example, if you suggest 1 mi and they ask 7 mi, then the asking prince is around 4 mi).
For selling your players, it has a lot to do with how rich the buying team is and if they are are actively trying to buy or not. When you offer players to other clubs, the price is always smaller than when they bid for a player you are not willing to sell. There might be something behind it, but I don't know how it works exactly.
More information, like set pieces, best player attributes or training schedules can be found on the link below.
https://fm-arena.com/thread/884-zaz-blue-3-0/page-1/
Leave a comment if you liked the tactic and make sure to share your results. Enjoy!
What do you do in these case? just ignore and keep the training or remove the focus for these unhappy players?
I just let them whine. As long as they are improving stats and still happy because of other reasons, it doesn't matter much.
Equally good for strong teams, but better for weaker teams.
Spoiler
PIs
GK: Take Fewer Risks
DR/L: Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward, Tackle Harder
DC: Dribble Less, Tackle Harder
DM: Hold Position, Tackle Harder
MR/L: Take More Risks, Cross From Byline, Shoot Less Often, Get Further Forward
MC: Take More Risks, Shoot Less Often, Move Into Channels, Tackle Harder
SS: Tackle Harder
Set pieces are the same as Blue 3.0, with images in the first post.
My version was almost identical, but had DM with dribble less and CM with dribble more, and didn't have Force Oposition Outside, but it seems to work better with those instructions taken from Lida, from fm-base.
It's actually a variant of Red, the "parent" of Blue, since I couldn't improve much from positive mentality. I'm using data from the end of season to optimize it, meaning dribbles per game, chances created, key passes and goals. DLP was switched to DM since it's not contributing much with chances created, to remove "take more risks". SK was also changed to defend for a similar reason, to stop giving away possession.
However, I found a tactic with similar roles in fm-base. Since it was posted 5 days after Red and Blue, it has probably inspiration on them, or maybe in Phoenix that was also released a couple of days after Red and Blue. Problem is, the player instructions of that tactic are pretty close to what I was coming up, but just copying their player instructions is giving me slightly better results for weaker teams.
I will post it down here if someone wanna test it, but I'm still making experiments myself.
P.S.: If anyone is curious about the data I talk about, it's something like this:
As you can see, the DLP is creating as "many" chances of goal as the BPD, meaning their "take more risks" is probably just giving away possession instead of doing anything useful.
Quickness to everyone, reactions to goalkeeper. Let they train the role they will play.
Have you actually seen good increase in pace / endurance over the course of time with it ?
Also how do you set intensity with it, normally when they are 90%+ I set to double intensity, using the training schedule of pre season got me a nice few injuries, just wondering if this is random bad luck me or should I lower the intensity to normal when above 90% ?
With double intensity, there will be injuries, but most of them for around three days. Maybe a couple of injuries of two to four weeks, but if you have more than three or four players with long term injury during pre-season, then you either got unlucky or your players are prone to injury. The endurance training pays off later during the season, because increasing natural fitness and stamina helps the players perform better and suffer less injuries (better condition and match fitness). However, I would reduce to normal intensity during in-season since you want to keep your players in top shape and without injuries. Also, double intensity doesn't have effect on next match bonuses or recovery, making it less effective for that schedule.
You will usually see attributes growing after one or two months. Pace and Acceleration will increase the most if you are also doing individual training for quickness. I often increase 2 to 3 points in those attributes during each season, with training rates between 8 and 10 to most players. All other attributes also increase, but only 1 or 2 points per season.
You don't put players that are not too expensive like mbappe or felix
I
I am going to tell a couple of names without looking at the price, checking only attributes from fminside.net. It's hard to say for sure because some leagues only allow a certain number of foreign players. I will also ignore hidden attributes that could be undesirable and players over 30 years old.
GK: https://fminside.net/players/43252073-gianluigi-donnarumma
DR: https://fminside.net/players/28104124-trent-alexander-arnold
DCR: https://fminside.net/players/85075627-raphael-varane
DCL: https://fminside.net/players/37024025-virgil-van-dijk
DL: https://fminside.net/players/67211695-theo-hernandez
DM: https://fminside.net/players/24016925-mateo-kovacic
ML: https://fminside.net/players/91138280-leroy-sane
MC: https://fminside.net/players/18004457-kevin-de-bruyne
MR: https://fminside.net/players/28054109-raheem-sterling
AMCR: https://fminside.net/players/85139014-kylian-mbappe
AMCL: https://fminside.net/players/98028755-mohamed-salah
It would be perfect if you can do it for high-mid-underdog teams, thank you in advance.
It's hard because it depends on the club and league. For example, most top players don't want to to play in Brazil, Sweden or lower teams from England. There are also lots of budget players with stats decided at game generation. The perfect team would also cost too much to be realistic, since very few teams can afford the likes of Mbappé.
It's set as MR/L from the same side, but it's often someone else with higher attribute that takes them. These attacking corner routines are copied from Motion.
I thought Pressure, Temperament and Professionalism were useful to control the players body language. Don't they play worse when they get nervous or complacent, for example?