Shyul said: If i wanted to make my own test where would i have to go to download a database and stuff like that? I would love to test this formation with an inverted fullback instead of the right wingback Expand You have 2 options:
- Run multiple times normal season on the 5 biggest leagues in the world. - Create one database.
Floppyaams said: No offense, but this is just silly imo. How many features have SI introduced but flat out don't work? Dynamic youth rating is the main one I can think of. Match preparedness also had no effect on performance as shown by EBFM's experiment and SI just removed that feature after being called out lmao. But heck, look at the FM Arena attribute testing. Many of the attributes highlighted in green or blue as being important for the position by the game flat out don't have much impact on the ME. It's surprising someone on this forum would continue to blindly take SI at face value when even they don't seem to understand how their game is running. Expand Brother, I agree with you. I just wanted to post it to show that they are at least trying to adapt to the user's tactics. So you come back to my words...
We all admit there are bugs but you(not you specifically) blame those who point them out to SI and call them toxic. Well done!
Delicious said: So, you are a sheep because SI said it on their advertisement. Perfect at least i know to whom i am referring to. Expand Just a minute to understand who you are in not believing what a company announces about the product they are going to sell. Every year we have to talk to you so you can tell us whether or not the game is worth it that you don't fall victim to SI. Decide who you're with? One defending the game, one telling us we are sheep. I really don't understand.
Delicious said: Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best) Expand Please don't misinform the people reading this thread. Everything you have posted has nothing to do with COUNTER-PRESS but is PRESSING in general and what you say they are pressing zonally is PRESSING TRAP to direct the opponent to an area where the team has the superiority in number and/or quality of players to won the ball back.
Delicious said: - If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really sentenced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY. Expand You really have completely missed the point. You are our guru! Keep it up! Hahaha
Delicious said: Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run a lot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press? -Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i? Expand Brother, did you really ever play football? I really want to know..
Delicious said: Did i misunderstood you again? Expand You are so funny. Before you make a joke, please let us know.
Delicious said: Why are you still bring-in "in-real football", I believe FIFA should be the "realistic" game and even tho i never played it i am sure of it is far from it. Expand Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
Delicious said: If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize. You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play". Expand If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Delicious said: Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totally blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here. Expand Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it. Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Delicious said: Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong. Expand Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool? When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here. Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way. Expand
Blau said: You are not forced to preorder the game. You can make the decision to not purchase the game if they do not deliver on the features they promise. You do not have to buy or play the game every year. I think for your sanity it might be better for you to take a break if you do not have fun with the game. Expand Man since there is freedom of speech I can share my opinion. If you disagree I respect it and will leave it until here.
Blau said: Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here. Expand That's your opinion. I don't need to tell you exactly what I do about FM in general. But if you don't fall into the category of people who report bugs and such, please show some respect.
Blau said: I don't think SI is reading the forums here. Expand Are you sure?
Blau said: Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year. Expand I didn't talk about a lot of new features in every new release. All I said was that I would like them to keep the promise they make to the fans of their product. You are misinterpreting my words.
Blau said: For example, Gegenpress wouldn't work without high stamina and physical players. Expand For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
Blau said: At the end of the day Football Manager is a videogame. If you do not enjoy playing the game then don't buy it. Not giving your money to SI will do more for changes you want then complaining on random forum. It is impossible for developers to make a video game that makes everyone happy. You as the consumer have to make the decision if the game is worth it for you to buy. I'm not saying you can't suggest improvements to the game. However, saying that the game is too easy is ironic. It's literally as difficult as you want it to be. Obviously, if you use or test tactics on FMArena it's going to be easy. Expand Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY. - I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years.
Avenger22 said: I mean Unity is recoding basically all its not easy to migrate to some 2009 ME to Unity which is completely different stuff, the concept animation etc, but i think ME will be very different at least they won't have the excuse of limitation because Unity for what FM wants for ME can do much better even graphically Expand I have them capable of creating exactly the same game just with better graphics! Low expectations is the key!
DreadPirateRoberts said: Well I am pretty sure 2,400 matches equals a margin of error of max 1-2 points. The difference between adding and removing 5 pace is 10 points. Secondly, there have been tests done where someone put all the "unimportant" attributes to 1, which resulted in horrific results. (like losing 9-0 every game) but when they put all those stats to 5, suddenly they only lost something like 3 out of 20 games in the prem with luton, basically a huge difference. This indicates that the attribute threshold is somewhere in between 5 and 10, after which any subsequent increase does nothing! Expand I'm not joining your discussion I just want to say that last year for FM23 the statistical difference/error of 1-1,5 points was at 4.000 matches. This year the difference might be slightly bigger. Keep that in mind. Thank you
DreadPirateRoberts said: I feel like you are not quite reading what I am writing. Please answer this question; how come adding +5 in passing doesn't improve results at all, but removing 5 passing suddenly makes a difference? The tests are done by making every stat 10 and then increasing/decreasing a certain attribute on all players. This means that any increase in passing above 10 doesn't do a single thing for performance, but if you remove 5 passing, so that the player now is left with 5 passing, it does impact performance negatively. WE are saying that a threshold exists based on these tests. +5 pace did less for performance than -5 pace did. Idk how else to explain this Expand Do you generally put randomness into the equation?
Avenger22 said: They should hire coaches and analyst to improve the ME seriously, i have huge hopes for FM 25 because it will be a fresh start and they have the chance to not mess it up, i mean it doesnt have to be rocket science just a good ME, they have the base. Expand Did they say somewhere that it would be a fresh start?
To understand FM23 and FM24 I still haven't played them properly. I'm tired of so many bugs, big or small, that ruin my experience as a user of the game. I've also read, actually, quite a few funny comments from those trying for some strange reason to defend SI's case that if we find the game easy or full of bugs then it's better not to use certain features of the game etc. For example I know that high pressing systems win more often than defensive systems and generally work in a way that ME likes better but their view is to play with defensive systems so I don't see the bugs and generally lose. What a joke!
Can someone tell me what the purpose of a game is? I think it's clear to all of us but I'm curious to hear some opinions..
Avenger22 said: Is there any fast way to train these player traits faster ? it takes ages to just learn one to a player or even unlearn maybe i have done it all wrong all this time in fm. Expand I don't think there's any way to speed up the process, but it's something that needs to be looked at more, like whether the attributes of your coaches have an impact on the time they do it faster. Btw clean your private messages because you reach the limit
This is a topic we haven't delved into much, and I believe it's crucial to understand which traits encourage or discourage players from performing the moves we define in PIs. This is preliminary work, and of course, anyone is welcome to contribute their insights so we can compile a "list" of the most effective traits for each PI.
To my knowledge, Player Traits, in addition to having conflicts with some PIs, are also largely based on player positions rather than being universal. For instance, the trait 'Gets Into Opposition Area' is not applicable to defenders, among others. Here are my initial observations:
When Opposition Has The Ball
When Team Has The Ball
When Player Has The Ball
*The presence of " -- " does not necessarily indicate the absence of positive or negative aspects. Please remember, it is still in the preliminary stages. **Some PIs were not included as I have yet to find a corresponding Trait that is suitable.
A Smile said: We have so many test tactics that a lot of times we can't pay too much attention to the changes in some details .In my previous test of the 424 Frog Whirl, the results of removing the "Pass Into Space" setting were better, with a difference of 58 and 54 points. But there are also examples of the opposite. In these two days of online qualifying matches, I found that the defensive midfielders were often tackled out of the ball, so I added the forward press command, and then removed the "Pass Into Space", and performed very well in the traditional 433 tactics. A normal traditional 433 tactic is always difficult to play in either solo or online matches. But a good 4-3-3 is incredibly powerful and probably the most controlled formation, even though it never gets a higher score on a single vacation test. So I gave it a try in the Brazilian box and got my personal best goal difference so far in my holiday test. Of course it's not the one I uploaded, I always test it at least 2-3 times. Expand I hope it goes well because I've heard from others that "Pass Into Space" especially in the "Attacking" mentality doesn't help that much. Maybe because there are no moves into space by the players or maybe because in a more aggressive mentality they are already doing it and activating the instruction to do it more than they should. We'll see!
White Europe said: I like all this tests done on this site, all helpful threads done by this outstanding FM players, but i don't think that speed is most important for every position: CM, DM or CD can be 11/10 pace acceleration, having 14/15 other important atributes for their position and perform better than just fast players. I think following atributes highlighted by FM can do best job. Expand Look here - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5351-should-you-follow-the-highlighted-attributes-of-the-roles/
I would love to test this formation with an inverted fullback instead of the right wingback
You have 2 options:
- Run multiple times normal season on the 5 biggest leagues in the world.
- Create one database.
Brother, I agree with you. I just wanted to post it to show that they are at least trying to adapt to the user's tactics. So you come back to my words...
We all admit there are bugs but you(not you specifically) blame those who point them out to SI and call them toxic. Well done!
Just a minute to understand who you are in not believing what a company announces about the product they are going to sell. Every year we have to talk to you so you can tell us whether or not the game is worth it that you don't fall victim to SI. Decide who you're with? One defending the game, one telling us we are sheep. I really don't understand.
Delicious said: Let's start go first a bit ironic, because seem you literally have no idea what you talking about, but it's funny tho :
https://youtube.com/shorts/-EbxCGlLP4s?si=ZSD80gV2z2dPQXYa
Check this on min 4:43 ; couldn't find a full match, it would be educational for you. But at least you can understand something about pressing and High - LOE ; You can understand that they were targeting their build-up ;
Here you can understand what i mean by zonal and man counter-pressing :
You can press an area/zone before the ball goes to player, so in my head the coach is telling them to press a specific zone of the pitch. (Maybe that's already too advanced lesson for you but i am trying my best)
Please don't misinform the people reading this thread. Everything you have posted has nothing to do with COUNTER-PRESS but is PRESSING in general and what you say they are pressing zonally is PRESSING TRAP to direct the opponent to an area where the team has the superiority in number and/or quality of players to won the ball back.
Delicious said: - If i want to focus their DS/DD or in a simple way their flanks, what do you believe i will do? If you can't focus their flanks with your "counter-press", maybe you are not quite in the game.
I am sure you can find materials about that, it's not necessary Klopp that did that. But once again seem you are a wikipedia of Football, which make me smile, since till this point you make no basic sense to me.
Like i can apply pressing only on central zone, but i am sure you didn't mean that, once again i do hope.
Even tho you don't believe me and your really sentenced it very wrong in first place, YOU NEED STAMINA IN ANY KIND OF SYSTEM YOU PLAY.
You really have completely missed the point. You are our guru! Keep it up!
Hahaha
Delicious said: Let's beside that possession tactics like Pep are based to make the opponents run a lot, but if they running maybe there is a reason :
-Are they trying to win the ball back? So, it's a counter-press?
-Are they just covering for a mistake? What's that then?
Do you believe if i don't apply pressure to your players, i will run more then you? If i do apply pressure on some zone instead of others etc will i?
Brother, did you really ever play football? I really want to know..
Delicious said: Did i misunderstood you again?
You are so funny. Before you make a joke, please let us know.
Im talking about real life football because SI wants FM to be as true as real football.
Delicious said: If you believe that gegen doesn't need stamina ok, i am not gonna stop you, you choose your words, don't say again we "misunderstood", i mean you could name everything, but stamina won your prize.
You didn't define what is for you stamina, so i let it, but literally, instead to go ask to SI boys, go to any amateur player and ask him, "how much stamina do you need in order to play".
If a team has a successful pressing system then logically they will have the ball in their possession more of the time. Who gets more tired? The year Liverpool won the league they played full pressing and literally played the whole season with 13-15 players. Did they turn into gods or were they all doped up? The following years were not the same. But why? Because they didn't have an effective press and players started getting tired/injured because the runs increased.
Delicious said: Pressing can be "man" or "zonal", It's liverpool playing narrow, or city? I am totally blind i was sure they almost play around the touch lines, i am lost in here.
Pressing man and zonal? This is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing in football. Gegenpress brother is the COUNTER-PRESS! To make this possible, your forward and midfield players needs to get on the side of the ball as soon as they lose the ball. You even posted the video but you probably didn't even see it.
Screenshot from the video you sent above.
Delicious said: Did you saw Pool vs Brighton? I mean literally they were pressing them for 90' minutes their defenders, if you believe that's require no much stamina or width, something is wrong.
Try to understand first how Gegenpress works and then come and talk to me. I'm talking and explaining what Gegenpress does without possession and you're just talking whatever you want.
How can a team do a COUNTER-PRESS with full width? Can you explain that to me?
Also when Liverpool have possession of the ball (54%) who will run more? Brighton or Liverpool?
When City have the ball and play those simple passes around the box which team have to run more? Which team need more stamina?
Read what Avenger22 said here.
Avenger22 said: Gegenpress is a completely misused term mainly from fans and pundits, it means counter-press basically pressing the counter so instead of running back to defend the counter you press like maniac for 5-10 s after you lose the ball, dortmund is first famous to do it with klopp in a very specific way.
Man since there is freedom of speech I can share my opinion. If you disagree I respect it and will leave it until here.
Blau said: Obviously, it's important to give feedback to SI and report bugs. However, the place for that is on the SI forums. This is a third-party website that primarily tests tactics lol. All you doing is complaining to other FM players here.
That's your opinion. I don't need to tell you exactly what I do about FM in general. But if you don't fall into the category of people who report bugs and such, please show some respect.
Blau said: I don't think SI is reading the forums here.
Are you sure?
Blau said: Football Manager is a product that SI sells. They are foremost concerned with profits. Not buying the game is the most effective way you have to share dissatisfaction with the game. The yearly sports game model is the crucial flaw in football manager's development. There will never be enough new features in each FM to truly warrant paying the full price for the new game every year.
I didn't talk about a lot of new features in every new release. All I said was that I would like them to keep the promise they make to the fans of their product. You are misinterpreting my words.
For anyone who understands football will know that Gegenpress on FM has nothing to do with reality. It works completely differently. In real life players don't need that much stamina because if the pressing is effective then the team playing that style will have more possession and in football the team chasing the ball tires more than the other team. Liverpool and City are examples. Also you can't play Gegenpress when you have attacking width in fairly wide or even worse with wide. One last thing high press in FM has nothing to do with high press in reality.
Over and over again. The same view with a different face.
First of all, I haven't said whether the game is easy or difficult. Perhaps you have misunderstood my words or I have not explained well what I mean. So let me be clearer.
- I DON'T WANT THEM TO DO THE GAME MY WAY.
- I WANT WHAT THEY ADVERTISE AS "NEW FEATURES" TO WORK AS THEY SHOULD. (New features in quotes because we've reached the point where they advertise bug fixes as new features)
How absurd does that sound to you? Just because I make demands of a game I love and have been playing for years means I'm bad? In life I've learned that if you don't demand something it doesn't get done. And I will repeat once again that the evolution of the game over the years has been for those you call toxic and "disgruntled". A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who take their time to report bugs within the official community. A thank you doesn't hurt to say to all those who suggest to the developers new additions to the game.
It's just easy to judge. I don't blame you. Keep doing what you're doing enjoying the game in the state it have been in for the last 2 years.
I have them capable of creating exactly the same game just with better graphics!
Low expectations is the key!
I'm not joining your discussion I just want to say that last year for FM23 the statistical difference/error of 1-1,5 points was at 4.000 matches. This year the difference might be slightly bigger. Keep that in mind. Thank you
Do you generally put randomness into the equation?
Did they say somewhere that it would be a fresh start?
Can someone tell me what the purpose of a game is? I think it's clear to all of us but I'm curious to hear some opinions..
I don't think there's any way to speed up the process, but it's something that needs to be looked at more, like whether the attributes of your coaches have an impact on the time they do it faster. Btw clean your private messages because you reach the limit
This is a topic we haven't delved into much, and I believe it's crucial to understand which traits encourage or discourage players from performing the moves we define in PIs. This is preliminary work, and of course, anyone is welcome to contribute their insights so we can compile a "list" of the most effective traits for each PI.
To my knowledge, Player Traits, in addition to having conflicts with some PIs, are also largely based on player positions rather than being universal. For instance, the trait 'Gets Into Opposition Area' is not applicable to defenders, among others. Here are my initial observations:
When Opposition Has The Ball
When Team Has The Ball
When Player Has The Ball
*The presence of " -- " does not necessarily indicate the absence of positive or negative aspects. Please remember, it is still in the preliminary stages.
**Some PIs were not included as I have yet to find a corresponding Trait that is suitable.
Thank you
I hope it goes well because I've heard from others that "Pass Into Space" especially in the "Attacking" mentality doesn't help that much. Maybe because there are no moves into space by the players or maybe because in a more aggressive mentality they are already doing it and activating the instruction to do it more than they should. We'll see!
https://fm-arena.com/thread/7086-testing-preset-tactics/
@Telespiza is the king!
I think following atributes highlighted by FM can do best job.
Look here - https://fm-arena.com/thread/5351-should-you-follow-the-highlighted-attributes-of-the-roles/