A Smile said: For example, the Brazilian box strategy, the central Vols+Vols point "Get Further Forward", then the central midfield lack of attacking cover, but also do not have a short pass and run relationship. Expand Can you explain that a little better? Because I don't think that's true.
I think there is some explanation for this but it's my guess.
The 433 narrow system with 3 strikers has no wingers first of all. This means that either AP and MEZ open up in half spaces or the wider AFs take on the (inverted?) winger role in more advanced positions.
Basically what seems to happen in general with all systems high up the table is that they build their game from the flanks because FM has had trouble defending from the flanks for many years so this is still very effective.
If the system doesn't have normal wingers, some roles are encourage play from the flanks by default (e.g. WB, MEZ, W, 3ST, ...) then attacks are made from the flanks without the "Focus Play Down Both Flanks" and you have this style of play naturally.
We also see that the W role which in the old FM was, without a second thought, one of the best roles for the wide attacking players but now this is not the case because the secret is half spaces (between the full-backs and the centre backs) so the W role remains on the edges of the pitch with minimal movement inwards. Also the last update on FM23 about more central attacks played a part too. Hence roles like IF/IW bring better results.
This is my opinion in general but I’m still trying to figure it out.
Zippo said: It's very important to understand that the RNG factor is always present and there're many tactical instructions that make such a small difference that can't even beat the RNG factor and the result might vary not because of those tactical changes but due to the RNG factor.
So don't be tricked by the RNG factor.
That's what I tried to say. Expand I understood what you were saying and I agreed with you. It's like you say.
My point was that once we come to the conclusion that some team instructions do work, if those instructions are also available individually to each player they might increase the effect and thus the score.
Zippo said: I's been said a thousand times already... ok, I'll say it once more.
The RNG of 1,200 tests 1-3 points.
The RNG of 4,000 tests 0.5-1.5 points.
At least that RNG numbers were true for FM23.
We haven't measured the RNG for FM24 yet. It might be higher or lower.
What does all that above mean?
It means that let's say if you test some tactic for 100,000 matches and you get 60 pts then you can call it "the true score" of this tactic.
But if you test only for 1,200 matches then you can get 57,58,59,60,61,62,63 pts.
So adding "Tackle Harder" PI might don't do anything and this time it just hit the highest RNG for this tactic. Expand I said that those instructions (Get Stuck In + Tackle Harder) which theoretically do the same thing MAY improve the score. Of course there is RNG on the results of each test. This is clear
Steelwood said: Logically it shouldn't work, but it did last year. People kept trying balanced mentality with tackle harder OR attacking mentality without it (aside from the tactic that was top before now)s Expand I think Jack Joyce (who is one of the developers of the game) said it very clearly about some of the instructions that are in both TIs and PIs.
“Having both enabled, at the same time, could make the player do that stuff even more.”
letsgo9 said: It rly felt that I was able to take lesser amount of goals while maintaing the attacking structure That so sadge Anyways, I'm glad to see that CDs have the same value than BPD on back 4 Expand On Early Access, players (especially defenders and wingers) touch the ball too much than usual and i think SI is aware of this. If they get this bug fixed, BPDs will have a difference as this role is more creative than CD role.
@letsgo9 brother I think we have already found the best tactic for the beta version. If we manage to clean up the team instructions so that only the ones that actually work remain then we will know exactly what works and what doesn't.
Blau said: The game doesn't make it clear how it treats the instruction with three guys on each flank. Overlap seemed to play better somehow. If this abomination of a tactic is any good, I will probably submit an underlap test on FMArena. Expand The only way to determine which position affects is to check inside PIs of each player on the sides.
Overlap/Underlap instruction increase individual mentality of DRL/WBRL positions and decrease individual mentality for MRL/AMRL positions. Now with 2 wingers on both sides I don't remember which position is affected. Anyway my comment was a joke
EDIT: I forgot to mention that Overlap instruction doesn't affect IWB’s individual mentality ( and maybe also IFB role ) at least on FM23. I didn't check that on FM24.
Lapidus said: No, you're mistaken if you think SI works like that.
They have strict deadlines when they have to stop working on the current year FM and start working on the next year FM. They might be "unhappy" about the current year M.E. but if they hit the deadline then they just have to seal whatever they got and start working on the next year M.E.. Expand We are saying the same thing Almost all companies with developers in it have deadlines.
Lapidus said: Honestly, it doesn't matter what "we think" because obviously, their business model works for them and brings makes them money and they're happy about it so they'll keep doing that way in the future until it stops brings money or they find anything different that will bring more money. Expand Yes for sure. It’s a company after all and they want to increase their income! But we as a community ( i speak about every person that plays FM games and participate in a forum related to the game ) have to put pressure for better things to come. I've seen other games change their strategy because of the pressure from their fans. Now if SI doesn't want to listen or at least explain some things so as to clear the field it can only hurt them in the long run.
Don't be fooled that FM23 had an increase in sales because it was a top game. It was a year that it returned to other platforms as well as received some new "unhappy customers" from other games like FIFA/eFootball ( PES - for old school gamers ) and in the end they get our money. We have to put pressure!
letsgo9 said: Is Focus on flanks slowing us down? Omfg Expand Basically the instructions that delays the attacking phase are Overlaps/Underlaps because they tell the wingers to hold the ball longer to see moves from the FB/WB out wide or inside from other teammates but it seems that from the last year’s game they are working very good.
Lapidus said: Of course, there's a lot of UI and M.E. bugs... for God sake it's a beta.
We'll get a finished product not yearly than Feb/Jan as it's always was in the past. Expand My honest opinion is that we will never have a finished/full product from SI at least for now
Every year they close the update cycle when they feel it's a good starting point for the next release. There are some UI & ME issues from previous years that they still haven't managed to fix. I don't blame SI and especially the Match Team for not fixing them, because I'm also a developer and I know the difficulty of these tasks. There are some bugs that are not easy to spot and fix right away. But the game needs to move forward and we all demand more and more every year, which I think is normal as passionate gamers.
But what worries me is the fact that we are buying a product with its good and bad that we all know 6 months from its release will no longer be supported by the company. This has always been the problem I've had. I'd rather they put out small little updates that fix the game's problems instead of waiting every December and March for them to put out 2 big updates.
Can you explain that a little better? Because I don't think that's true.
The 433 narrow system with 3 strikers has no wingers first of all. This means that either AP and MEZ open up in half spaces or the wider AFs take on the (inverted?) winger role in more advanced positions.
Basically what seems to happen in general with all systems high up the table is that they build their game from the flanks because FM has had trouble defending from the flanks for many years so this is still very effective.
If the system doesn't have normal wingers, some roles are encourage play from the flanks by default (e.g. WB, MEZ, W, 3ST, ...) then attacks are made from the flanks without the "Focus Play Down Both Flanks" and you have this style of play naturally.
We also see that the W role which in the old FM was, without a second thought, one of the best roles for the wide attacking players but now this is not the case because the secret is half spaces (between the full-backs and the centre backs) so the W role remains on the edges of the pitch with minimal movement inwards. Also the last update on FM23 about more central attacks played a part too. Hence roles like IF/IW bring better results.
This is my opinion in general but I’m still trying to figure it out.
If you want full support from FM-Arena’s admins too please read this and comeback with your changes.
Thank you!
So don't be tricked by the RNG factor.
That's what I tried to say.
I understood what you were saying and I agreed with you. It's like you say.
My point was that once we come to the conclusion that some team instructions do work, if those instructions are also available individually to each player they might increase the effect and thus the score.
The RNG of 1,200 tests 1-3 points.
The RNG of 4,000 tests 0.5-1.5 points.
At least that RNG numbers were true for FM23.
We haven't measured the RNG for FM24 yet. It might be higher or lower.
What does all that above mean?
It means that let's say if you test some tactic for 100,000 matches and you get 60 pts then you can call it "the true score" of this tactic.
But if you test only for 1,200 matches then you can get 57,58,59,60,61,62,63 pts.
So adding "Tackle Harder" PI might don't do anything and this time it just hit the highest RNG for this tactic.
I said that those instructions (Get Stuck In + Tackle Harder) which theoretically do the same thing MAY improve the score. Of course there is RNG on the results of each test. This is clear
Steelwood said: Logically it shouldn't work, but it did last year. People kept trying balanced mentality with tackle harder OR attacking mentality without it (aside from the tactic that was top before now)s
I think Jack Joyce (who is one of the developers of the game) said it very clearly about some of the instructions that are in both TIs and PIs.
“Having both enabled, at the same time, could make the player do that stuff even more.”
It boosts “Get Stuck In” much more.
That so sadge
Anyways, I'm glad to see that CDs have the same value than BPD on back 4
On Early Access, players (especially defenders and wingers) touch the ball too much than usual and i think SI is aware of this. If they get this bug fixed, BPDs will have a difference as this role is more creative than CD role.
A different variation of this tactic with overlaps instead of underlaps.
Based on this tactic with 2DMs instead of 2CMs and some minor changes on PIs.
Let’s go!
What do you think?
The only way to determine which position affects is to check inside PIs of each player on the sides.
Overlap/Underlap instruction increase individual mentality of DRL/WBRL positions and decrease individual mentality for MRL/AMRL positions. Now with 2 wingers on both sides I don't remember which position is affected. Anyway my comment was a joke
EDIT: I forgot to mention that Overlap instruction doesn't affect IWB’s individual mentality ( and maybe also IFB role ) at least on FM23. I didn't check that on FM24.
They have strict deadlines when they have to stop working on the current year FM and start working on the next year FM. They might be "unhappy" about the current year M.E. but if they hit the deadline then they just have to seal whatever they got and start working on the next year M.E..
We are saying the same thing
Almost all companies with developers in it have deadlines.
Lapidus said: Honestly, it doesn't matter what "we think" because obviously, their business model works for them and brings makes them money and they're happy about it so they'll keep doing that way in the future until it stops brings money or they find anything different that will bring more money.
Yes for sure. It’s a company after all and they want to increase their income! But we as a community ( i speak about every person that plays FM games and participate in a forum related to the game ) have to put pressure for better things to come. I've seen other games change their strategy because of the pressure from their fans. Now if SI doesn't want to listen or at least explain some things so as to clear the field it can only hurt them in the long run.
Don't be fooled that FM23 had an increase in sales because it was a top game. It was a year that it returned to other platforms as well as received some new "unhappy customers" from other games like FIFA/eFootball ( PES - for old school gamers ) and in the end they get our money. We have to put pressure!
Basically the instructions that delays the attacking phase are Overlaps/Underlaps because they tell the wingers to hold the ball longer to see moves from the FB/WB out wide or inside from other teammates but it seems that from the last year’s game they are working very good.
In a normal season?
We'll get a finished product not yearly than Feb/Jan as it's always was in the past.
My honest opinion is that we will never have a finished/full product from SI at least for now
Every year they close the update cycle when they feel it's a good starting point for the next release. There are some UI & ME issues from previous years that they still haven't managed to fix. I don't blame SI and especially the Match Team for not fixing them, because I'm also a developer and I know the difficulty of these tasks. There are some bugs that are not easy to spot and fix right away. But the game needs to move forward and we all demand more and more every year, which I think is normal as passionate gamers.
But what worries me is the fact that we are buying a product with its good and bad that we all know 6 months from its release will no longer be supported by the company. This has always been the problem I've had. I'd rather they put out small little updates that fix the game's problems instead of waiting every December and March for them to put out 2 big updates.
What do you think?